Hi Perry: This is follow-up I mentioned above.
"I have truly enjoyed your posts and I'm surprised and embarrassed to admit that I have found myself struggling to like you."
That's fine. I discovered a while back that I need not try to like to dislike anyone of these forums. Those I like and am close to are those I have known personally, or have developed an email realtionship with. I just let the relationship chips fall where they may. Maybe if can respect each other, that is all we need for now.
I am not quite sure why. Could it be jealousy? If I apply ruthless honesty to myself, I must admit that I have succomed to this most base of human emotions. I have always been one of the most unjealous people I know, so it's quite disconcerting..
I have done many things that go against what I believe about myself. I guess it is part of being human. The whole reason that I ever published the article about how I got my family out, was because several people, close friends and ex-JWs urged me to do so. They felt that it might help many who are looking for a plan. I published it in the hopes that it would be helpful. Understanding that every experience is different, some may only find my methods partly helpful, and others may not find any useful parts at all.
The other reason for its publication is that I kept hearing stories of JWs who would read C of C, run to their families and say they are leaving because the WTS is full of *S ... While this approach may be perfectly honest, it does often cause a person to find themselves cut off from loved ones. So, I reasoned that maybe if someone see some ideas before they run to tell their JW family, that maybe they can devise a plan to mitigate the ultimate damage. I would love to see more and more ex-JW publish their methods ... especially those that were raised JWs, because others could benefit from their experience, the successes and failures. I can never write about it from that perspective, because I don't have those experiences. I am just one guy who pitches in one set of ideas and methods.
It appears from your posts, that you managed to ride high and mighty as an annointed Elder, a most prestigous position in the JW version of reality.
As I explained to Tina above, and more now to you, my "Anointing" was often more of a handicap, as I had to live a very guarded JW life, lest I be cast into the "Nutcase" bin or been seen and an "egotist par excellence." Tina was right on on how the Society published this kind of blackmail fear into the JWs. Had I never professed to be Anointed, I would have excelled more in the beginning. But, it was used against me more often than it may have helped.
It seems like you got to squeeze almost every ounce of psychological accolade from your experience of riding the charging white steed along with your peer group of generals and theological tacticians.
I never rode the "White Horse" of Anointed Elder until the very end when I was leaving. And, it was not so much the Anointed aspect of it, but the fact that circumstances afforded me an opportunity to milk the situation. My first goal was to keep my cover. So, when at first I was not assigned the memorial Talk, I was prepared to let it go. When it was assigned, I accepted so I could continue my role. But charging in, no, it was rather all about steering clear of blowing my cover. Yes, my last talk did reveal the nuts and bolts of how JW Anointed "Know" they are such, that it, they determine it for themsleves ... and that is all it is ... and my goal was to blow the lid on the secrecy as my parting gift so to speak.
Had I not been Anointed or an Elder, I could have actually done this with greater ease, precisely because I would not have as much visibility. If anyone really wants to escape the JW religion, they can do this with a plan ... if they take the time to evaluate all the fears they have and plan to meet those fears ... then work the plan to its finish ... take time ... and stop to measure where they are at and where they want to be.
If a young JW, maybe new to the religion, and no JW family wants to leave ... he/she can slip away a lot easier with a small plan. But, when a JW is raised in the religion, and all their friends and all their relatives are JWs ... and if they marry a lifelong JW whose relatives are all JWs, and their children are all JWs, maybe young adults ... then plans like mine, as written won't work well. About the only part of my plan that will be of use is the concept of planning itself ... taking things slowly ... listening and gradually injecting thought into their relatives mind ... and likely taking a lot more time to accomplish. I don't envy those situations. I hope that any ex-JW in such a situation who successfully got out a significant portion of her/his family would write about it and share what worked for them for the benefit of those who need additinal ideas.
The delusional feelings you must have felt while in the JW mindset must have been phenomenal even if humility was a core value. You certainly seem to be a nice enough guy.
I am not really sure here what you are driving at, but I will take a stab at it ... and correct me if I missed the point. I believed in the JW religion, its core premise of a Paradise Earth governing by a loving righteous and perfect heavenly government. I agreed with certain doctrines like no hellfire or no Trinity. Some might feel I was delusional because I professed to be Anointed. But, I don't think that is accurate, because ti is the Society who promotes the concept that newly Anointed are likely nutcases.
I am not sure humility was the primary core value, though I would like to think so ... and hope so ... and those who know me seem to say so. But, I would say that uncertainty and fear of being viewed as "One can short of a Six pack" governed me a lot too. I was even more careful in many ways to watch my step so that I would fit in socially and religiously. I did this unconsciously and consciously. I did not see myself as some great giant Elder/Anointed who was a local Big Boss ... I saw myself as an average JW who was an average Elder ... who habd the handicap of being Anointed, and so needed to watch my step lest the real Bosses decided that I was "Personna Non Grata."
Then, when you learned the truth about the Truth, you once again managed to achieve the unachievable by getting your entire family and a son-in-law out... a most favorable outcome comparable to a paradise earth utopia when compared to the rest of us. Surely your previous position commanded attention and demanded your loved ones to seriously consider your new found position.
My family and I were close because we were a good family in my opinin. I dount that my children went to bed at night gleaming with pride because Dad was a Big Shot Anointed. They were like any kids ... they cared and loved my wife and I because of what we developed between us. AND ... here is another part of the formula ...
My wife's family, her parents and brothers were close to her and over time the JW WALL of SEPARATION eroded so that we found ourselves being close to them inspite of their non-JW status ... I greatly credit my English Mum-inLaw and my Father-in-Law with the love and acceptance that surely created strong structural support for my children ... and if any existing JW want out of the religion, I suggest they start building these non-JW support structure now, before they leave ... So, when my kids started hearing me raise doubts ever so softly ... they begin to think for themsleves ... I never once told them what to decide or believe ... and never used position or power ... I sat back and fed information gradually ... and they made their own decisions.
No doubt the political posturing you evidently mastered to a fine degree together with patience, intelligence, and a stategic theological line of questioning in your family studies, comparable to; "Is it really so that God has said that you must not eat of every tree of the garden"?, has produced the outcome you now enjoy and that has become the catalyst for a realization of my not-so-perfect personality.
My personality and style are anything but perfect, and yours is likely far better than my own. My family, my wife, my children are more important to me than anything on this planet. I unconditionally love and accept them for who and what they are, whether they fulfill their owns lives one way or another. This is done not from any sense of being intelligent, saavy, clever, powerful or weak ... it is a choice I made to live that way as I was exiting ... to love unconditionally.
But, I was prepared to walk into hell to get them out. If it would have meant a few more years as a JW, or other more exotic acts ... perhaps taking the molestation thing to the media ... or whatever ... I would have done what it took and would not have stopped until they demanded that I stop.
But, Mr. Amazing most of us here in the trenches did not get the strategical grooming and political posture training you received.
I think this may be a misperception about me. Any "grooming" and saavy came not fomr my being a JW, or Elder, or anything else in the religion ... anything that enabled me came from non-JW training in business and social interactions ... there was no "training' inside the JWs to be so clever ... rather, employments of any cleverness was a choice ... and I used whatever weaknesses, loopholes, flaws, and hideouts in the systemn that I could find. Yes, being an Elder presented my with some advantage, but there were disadvantages to work against. I just had to take my circumstances, the tools available, and make do. There is no magic formula.
We fell hook, line and sinker for the illusion of Truth and were not privy to the underpinnings of much of the freedom you enjoyed as an elder. Many of us were raised in this religion, sometimes our families go back several generations.
This is likely an area where we might have some disagrement, unless I am misunderstanding something. "Freedom and an Elder" strikes me as a unique perception. I saw it as an iron anchor bolted to my neck ... step out of line, and get dunked into the wide open sea to sink to the bottom. I bought the religion "hook, line, and sinker" as well ... and while spending 25 years with it will never afford me any full understanding of those raised JWs, but the longer I was in it, the more it absorbed me and my fmaily ... my children were raised JWs ... then the more I was like those raised in it. Were I only a JW 2 or 3 years and then got out .. I could see the argument ... but 25 years is a full generation ... a lifetime to some ... and all my friends and social structure was centered on the Organization ... all that had to be dealt with, plus trying to effect a new support structure once we left ...
Because our commitment to "truth" was so intense, when we learned the truth about the truth we immediately (or almost) took a stand and now find ourselves totally ripped from the fabric of normal family life, as if we ever had one in the first place.
I don't believe that was any less committed to Truth. No, I did not take the Guillotine approach and get ripped from my family. The committment to Truth is not proven by the actions we take to get away from an abusive situation. The committment to truth is a stand alone quality and choice. What strategy we use to end abuse is also a stand alone choice governed by our circumstances, experience, personality, willingness to suffer, and other factors. The actual plan is likewise something else, and to me does not dimenish committment to Truth ...
1st Example: A person is standing in line in a bank and a bank robber comes in, locks the doors, and fire his gun. He tells everyone to drop face down to the floor, and orders the cashiers to dump lots on cash into his bags. The customer says to himself that he is committed to honesty and he hates theives, so he am going to prove his good citizenship, and stand up and tell this bank robber how bad he is, and order him to put his gun down ... BOOM! ... The Robber kills the Committed Citizen. Does that make sense?
2nd Example: Another customer, just as committed to honesty and hates thievesd realizes that the first customer died needlessly. So the second customer plans to watch, look for weakneses, study everything, stay calm, be cool ... and when the opportunity presents itself ... take out the Robber. The second customer might not succeed, but at least he is reducing some of the risk by using his head and keeping a low profile.
3rd Example: The bank Vice President also sees the first customer die. The VP is not armed nor trained in dealing with a robbery. He has never faced a robbery before. He to chooses to use some stealth and strategy to look for opportunity, maybe pressing a secret button to bring in the cops ... or cleverly inducing the Robber into the vault, and then slamming the gate shut locking the Robber inside. Then he closes the Big Vault Door to keep the Robber from shooting people ... as the rest in the bank run for cover.
Did the VP have any particular advantages? Some. He works there and has knowledge of the loophole in tricking someone to get locked inside the vault. But is he any less committed to truth, honesty, and the American Way? No, he seeks advantages, uses what resources he has at the moment. He is nor more less or greater a hero than the customer who died. But he made a choice that being dead was far less productive in this situation.
No one in my family going back 4 generations and as wide as 3rd and 4th cousins has ever left this religion. ... We relate more to the "Man from Bogota" parable:
You are 100% correct. As I noted above, my situation and plans may have little use to use ... maybe a little, maybe almost nonce other than the general concept of developing a "plan."
Sometime around the turn of the previous century an anthropoligist journyed to Columbia and discovered a tribe of people who were all genetically blind from birth. He fell in love with these people because despite being blind they were able to care for their needs and do all the normal things to sustain life. He marveled at their work ethic and ingenuity which, to them it was just normal. They took him in and shared their way of life with him. He decided to make it his life's work to help these people.He started by telling them that the meat they were cooking was burnt black from the fire and suggested they cook it a little differently. He was ignored with a smile. Undaunted, he was determined to give these nice people an idea of what they were missing. He informed them about a herd of deer that he could see down wind a bit from their village, thinking this would surely summon a hunting party. He was visibly ignored when he made this comment.
He continued for some time with his "help" and finally gathered them all together and tried to explain the concept of color. He spoke in glowing illustrious terms about natures' canopy in the rain forest and how it was alive with infinite shades of green. He related how the sunlight would make the leaves twinkle as the leaves fell softly to the ground as if dancing to some unknown accompaniment.
The group of normally friendly natives stopped up their ears and cried out to seize him. Four of the strongest men held him down and one of the elders took a half burned stick from the fire and procedded to burn out his eyes, thus ending his view of the world.
Excellent illustration! Point well taken.
So, while I appreciate all the posts you have made, and certainly hope you never stop posting here; please excuse the occasional jabs you encounter from time to time. My little bout with jealousy will pass and I'm sure I will grow from the experience.
I don't mind the jabs. I do understand that there are significant differences from one situation to the next. Look at Ray Franz, a life long JW related to those in the higest levels ... nearly 60 years a JW ... and he sacrificed everything to leave ... but he has his wife, some ex-JWs who knew him at Bethel, and many new friends, both ex-JW and never-JWs. I don't know how well he planned his exit ... but he worked with his situation as each turn in the road came up. Much of my exit was not planned ... I just rolled with it as it unfolded. My one strong plan was getting my family the hell out.
While I thought Amnesia's hidden agenda didn't really compliment her formidable intellectual skills, and she took it a little too far, I can relate to some of her frustrations.
You see, this is where I am puzzled. One of her arguments demands that once you learn the Truth about the Troof! ... that you are duty bound to leave it fast ... then she allowed for a "Kamikaze" plan ... but essentiually, Amnesian's expressed view made no allowance for the wide spectrum of situations ... she took a dogmatic singular view in most of her arguments. I fail to see how you culd relate to someone who would expect that you, in your situation, immediately upoin realization that the Truth is a Lie, to sever all ties and walk out in nano-seconds, lest you have some special secretive indercover "Kamikaze" plan ... you, in her opinion, have no room to stand and breath ... I fail to relate to her at all as far as her expressed views ... too rigid, too narrow, too restrictive, too dogmatic, and far too arrogant of other people. But if you relate to her, then if it helps you get your family and friends out, or in some way cope emotionally, then who am I to argue with what works for you.
However, I admire your courage and commitment to practicalness while exiting, even if the ivy league position gave you more clout.
I had little clout. And JW ELders are far from Ivy league. I pretty well described this above.
It seems to have been a blessing both to your family and to us as you relate the various events during that time in your life. Please keep them coming ... even if some of us secretly love to hate you :-)
Thanks for the good feedback. As I told Englishman yesterday, I am discovering how good it is to be disliked for whom I am than what I am ...
... I publish my material for a number of reasons ... to help if it helps ... to debate and learn ... to get ideas and understanding from others ... to share and part of the clan here ... and for personal therapy. I do not seek praise, though any normal person enjoys some. I am not vying for a Nobel Prize ... nor seeking attention ... no more so than any other frequent poster. This place, like H20, has become my gig for now ... and as I reach the Ten year Apostate Pin, I am thinking of retiring from ex-JW-dom ... and be a lurker with only a comment or two now and then. But then again, I don't know ... I might run for a political office, or who knows. - Just kidding about the political thang ...
For many of us, though we build multi-million dollar companies, achieve academic recognition, or build a friend network that rivals an MLM scam, we would give all our vast resources and accomplishments in life to gain our families back.
And given your talents and expertise, maybe you can get together with some in a similar situation to your own ... and devise a plan that works for you ... maybe some of what I provide will help, and maybe not. Maybe just the concept of a plan is where to start.
So as you go fishing with your son and talk with your daughter and sit for a family meal at Thanksgiving, I hope that you pray a little prayer of personal thanks. Because for most of us the reality of the situation leaves only two choices. Continue to love the unlovable, reason with the unreasonable, and ignore the unignorable and pay the consequences; or, simply allow the fading memories of a family once cherished to live on in a heavy heart while attempting to build a new family outside relatives and JWdom.
You are correct ... I do thank my lucky stars. My goal was never to run success in anyone's face. I do not consider 25 years a JW any kind of thing to boast of ... and getting my family out was the least I could do ... and if anything shared helps others, I feel that I owe at least that much. If nothing shared helps, then maybe I can find other better ways to help ... I don't know ... but not a day goes by that I am not thinking about JWs still in the religion.
I want my good friends back ... I want to play cards or chess with some of my JW friends ... I want to go hiking or camping or a movie with them ... more importantly, I want my JW friends to realize that I love them, and want their freedom for them ... and I am helpless beyond what I did accomploi9sh to do a thing for them ... and as the last ten years have gone by, the memory of them never fades ... it just becomes a painful thing always there ... always reminding me of what was lost to a heartless religion ... and I will spnd my life doing what I can to find a way for them ... a plan and strategy that has eluded me for ten years.
I also post because in presenting my ideas and issues, I look for your ideas and success that I might take to get through to dear friends still in the JWs ... and maybe in someway we can both feel better about trying to help one another.[8D
