Do we need a 'Faithful and Discrete Slave' ? (page 2)

thinkers wife

Pardon me, if this is redundant. I have to agree with everyone. Why waste on more day of our lives quibbling over words and splitting hairs. Life is too short for that. I think our purpose in life is to find joy and love and share it with everyone we touch. What could possibly be wrong with that?
TW

amicus

I read a post by JT somewhere on this board that allowed me to see very clearly one of the things that bothered me about WTBTS. The comment was something like, Who cares if Jesus died on a light pole or a telephone pole?
I think those who dwell on silly debates such at that often miss the whole point of what Jesus was trying to teach.

JT

Amicus

Yes we did spend alot of time on those Silly issues

all the yrs that i gave public talks i never could bring myself to doing a "Prophecy" talk

I used to give a talk about "Love the ID of true christian"

i recall so many friends coming up to me after the meeting to tell me that"

"Our hall needed that"

and my wife and i would leave and discuss why- why -why- would the very ID mark of a person called a christian be so lacking among us as jw

we now i understand - we all were merely working for a Publishing Company

ck this out about 3 yrs ago i read in a Printing Trade Mag
that the WTBYS was the second largest printing outfit behind the US Gov Printing Office here in DC

and that is who you and i used to work for

how sad

JT

larc

I want to comment on some of your comments.

RHW - "Jehovah and Jesus have become more personal as a result."

I think that is what it should be all about. You know, I used to dislike the baptist saying "have you found Jesus as your personal Savior?" I still do because I am not too thrilled about their "Organization" either, but that basic idea is not a bad one.

Thinker's Wife,

"Our purpose in life is to find joy and love and share with everyone we touch."
Now and then I read parts of the Bible, and when I do I read one book, not one passage. After doing this, I think the message of the Gospel, the first four books of the New Testement, were very simple: LOVE AND MERCY.

JT,

Your talk about the "ID of the true christian." and how well it was received. I don't know what posessed me, but when I was 18, I gave a similiar hour talk. Only one compplimented me. He was one that others thought as somewhat dim witted, but he was not. He had a better mind and heart than his more verbally adept brothers did. He said something like "We hear so much about the end of the world. It was nice to hear something positive."

I have truely appreciated your good words.

larc

Sorry Amicus,

I didn't mean to leave you out. I was taking notes and I forgot to put your name next to your quote.

You mentioned the "silly debates" and that they "miss the whole point of what Jesus was trying to teach." The phrase comes back to me "straining at the gnat and swollowing the camel." What Jesus fought against in his day, is what JW's have become in our day.

ISP

I think there is widespread agreement that what Jesus taught is sufficient. It is that what energised those early believers and so to depart from that would be a mistake.

What we might miss from the FDS would be 'new light' but there seems little need for it. It is likely only going to detract from the core message.

Does anyone see the need to be associated with a congregation as indicated in Revelation?

ISP

thinkers wife

Amen Brother JT. It always tweaks me when the Society constantly quotes John 13:35. Then picks on other religions for their lack of this. Somewhere in all the studying, meetings, fs, this gets left behind somewhere. Individuals have it, but then again so do individuals in other churches.
What a false claim to be making.
TW

RedhorseWoman

Does anyone see the need to be associated with a congregation as indicated in Revelation?

I think you need to define "congregation". To me, this board is a virtual congregation of like-minded individuals. I don't see the necessity of physically attending a specific Hall or Church in order to have association.

amicus

JT,
I have been out of the loop for a while, so I'm not sure how accurate these statements are, but I remember hearing things like; Jdubs have the biggest 'construction company' in the world and they have the biggest 'trucking company' in the US.
Somehow I missed those activities being emphasized in my studies of the Scriptures.

Larc,
In my meandering through printed media I read something that hit home;
"They loved money and desired prominence and flattering titles. The Pharisees were so biased in their application of the Law that they made it burdensome for the people, insisting that it be observed according to their concepts and traditions. They completely lost sight of the important matters, namely, justice, mercy, faithfulness, and love of God. The Pharisees went to great lengths in making proselytes." (italics mine, Pharisees-Insight on the Scriptures pg626 pg5

MDS

Hi ISP:

Happy to make your acquaintance.

You have asked a couple of very good questions. Two good questions, that I feel have not been correctly answered. You asked,

Do we need a "faithful and Discreet Slave? ... Does anyone see the need to be associated with a congregation as indicated in Revelation?

And the correct answer to both questions would be, YES!

ISP, when people cannot explain something, they tend to mitigate its importance...explain it away as being meaningless...of no consequence.

But, keep in mind...The FD&S as mentioned by Jesus at Matt. 24:45 and the congregational arrangements of Revelation 1:20, all come out of the Bible itself. They are to be viewed, and rightly so, as Divinely Instituted Arrangements!

Arrangements instituted by God Himself. These cannot be discarded or discounted as being of no value, by no human, period. Perhaps, unintentionally, or even intentionally, still either way, this has occurred, as shown by some comments on this board.

But we must remember, some of us, are in a state of complete CONFUSION! It appears we don't know if we are "coming" or "going," or our "left hand from the right." So, because of resulting "problems", and total Biblical "confusion" about these resulting "problems" and a lack of "solutions" apparent, some among God's people, Jehovah's Witnesses, will conjure up strange ideas... Thus, the "counsel" we see you have received above by the most, and the answers you have received to your question from the majority here.

To answer your two question,

... Yes, the FD&S (Matt. 24:45) and congregational arrangment (Revelation 1:20), BOTH represent true provisions from God, that sometimes, man, yes, pollutes, corrupts...I'm referring now specifically to the Governing Body of our day. Still, these are nevertheless, Godly arrangements from God. And they are not bad in themselves, since they actually came from God and Jesus. No more than the Mosiac Law was bad in itself. Humans just couldn't follow them perfectly...but the Law was not bad, in itself. It was the "leaders," the Pharisees and others, who were bad...who polluted the Godly arrangement of the Mosiac Law, and brought on God's wrath upon the entire nation of Israel for their repeated "disobedience" to it. The leaders did this.

Still, these Godly arrangements, are taught in Holy Scripture...and so cannot be thought of as being bad, or worthless at any time. They cannot either, be discarded by humans, viewed as "trivial," or being worthless, being of no account. They must be recognized as Godly arrangements before Jehovah God. Arrangements that must be adhered to, if we are remain in God's favor.

Today, we are not authorized by Jehovah to put these arrangement down with, with word or deed, no more than we can speak against the Mosiac Law Covenant itself of years gone by. Only Jehovah can discard the Mosiac Law, and say we are in need of another Covenant, the Christian one. Jehovah does that, only He makes that determination. We cannot discard anything, nor make such a determination, within ourselves. He has not given us that responsibility. We are not the "Head" of the christians congregational arrangement, but Jesus Christ is.

Actually, even today, these Divine provisions are still largely misunderstood at present. Mistakes have been made, that have resulted in harm to many within the congregational setting of Jehovah's Witnesses today. These "problems" must be corrected.

For example, the "Elder Arrangement" itself, as enacted since 1971, presently active among Jehovah's Witnesses, is still, not completely scripturally, and not totally meeting up to God's standards. Decisions made are that are wrong. Leadership is skewed, judgment faulty. And those who are making the policies for present day Jehovah's witnesses, must be removed, as they are NOT spiritually qualified for any leadership purposes at all. This is a problem that Almighty God must resolve, along with the Head of the christian congregation, Jesus Christ Himself.

Still, the idea or the concept of a congregational arrangement, is divinely instituted, Divinely Ordained by God Himself and Bible-Based...rooted in the scriptures. And Jesus stands behind this arrangement, as the "head" of the congregation of God. The arrangement is established by Jehovah Himself, and cannot be dissolved by man, without God's approval.

Therefore, we must deal with the situation, the problematic situation, because christians, footstep followers of Jesus, are thus, bound to any Divine Arrangement God sets up....bound to it.

2 Tim. 2:19, 20 clearly indicates that within the congregational settings, spiritual "problems" can develop, resulting in some "vessels", ones who are "not of an honorable use," satanic "vessels" even, to be expected and can be present within such a Godly Arrangement.

And if it gets worse, as it has in our day, ... If and when, Satan is so successful in making corruption go as high as the Governing Body, as it has in our day, then we must wait upon Jehovah God and Jesus to bring about the real "solution." -- See Matt. 13:41

These are the "circumstances" we find ourselves in today. But, it was that way when Jesus came. The entire spiritual nation was corrupt...all the way up to the top. The Pharisees, Sadducees, the top spiritual leaders, in the lead, as today, our modern-day "Pharisees," are in the lead of the Jehovah's Witnesses, God's Name People. Wicked men. The Governing Body. Clearly wicked.

But God will handle the situation. Even though Satan may plant a "false god" within God's own temple, as he has, still, the problem will handled, dealt with by the Creator himself. If Satan reaches that high...God deals with it, in His own way. In such cases, we must avoid "idolatry" at all costs. We must do what God requires of us. If they are polluting God's Own Temple. God will Judge. -- 2 Thess. 2:3-12; Rev. 11:1-3

Jehovah has many "options."

For example, if Jehovah decides to "release" us, from "captivity," ... from the WTS, the entire congregation itself...if He desires for our "exodus" from the congregational setting, escape from "Babylon," (Rev. 18:4) then, He will be the One to do the delivering. He sends "Cyrus" for that. Jesus has done this before. Rescued us from one Godly Arrangement, and delivered us to another. This can be done. God can do this. No problem for Him.

But still, until that time, that God Himself does the delivering, we must be patience. We must keep the faith. Jesus said,

"when Son of man arrives, will he really find the faith on the earth." -- Luke 18:8

We must keep this attitude, at all times, as christians.

Remember, the congregational arrangement is a Divine institution. No one can usurp its authority, overturn it, downgrade it. No one can NULLIFY its rightful place in worship of God, that has put before us, as christians. Only God can do this. -- Hebrews 10:24, 25

We remember, that each congregation, has "Gifts in men," from God Himself, and Jesus Christ. These are spiritual leaders, divinely appointed to take the lead among us, that must yes indeed, "answer", that's ANSWER to God and Jesus for what they have done. (Please note Eph. 4:8; 1 Tim. 5:24, 25) This fact cannot be belittled by anyone who "knows their God." If such did not exist, then, how else, could we explain such scriptures, as 1 Thess. 5:12, 13; 1 Tim. 5:17. How?

If God's People were not supposed to be under a congregational setting as described above, then, how do we as christian followers of Jesus explain those verses?

Yes, How could such be even, possible? How?

It could be not be possible.

Your example of the 7 congregations of Rev. 2nd and 3rd chapters, give tremendous "evidence," scriptural evidence, that God's People should be organized, into a Godly congregational arrangement. And the sinning we find present in our day by the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses, DOES NOT NEGATE this evidence. So your scriptures that you cited, are applied correctly and you have reasoned correctly too. -- Rev. 1:20

Contrary to what you have been advised above by the majority, (but not all, just some), has to be viewed as totally, unscriptural. It represents "the thoughts" and ideas "of man, and not the higher, thoughts of God." -- See Mark 8:33

The Bible clearly shows us that the way Jehovah God, settles problems, problems like false teachings, false prophecies, false chronologies, false dates, 1914, 1975, and other things, all taught among God's Own His people, things the Bible says are spiritual "leaven," before Jehovah God...Jehovah solves with DISCIPLINE to His People. -- See Matt. 16:12; Jer. 23:19, 20

So, what will Jehovah do about this "situation"? This "leaven" in His House?

He will handle this problem by severe "discipline," Godly administered discipline upon His Own People, just as any loving father would do for His children. -- See Hebrews 12:5-11.

God will solve the problem.

So, Jehovah God will handle all problems associated with the congregation of Jehovah witnesses, aka modern-day "Israel," of Bible prophecy with "loving discipline," as His Word clearly indicates. He will firstly, chastise them, and then, later clean them up and build them up into a "mighty nation, just as Micah 4:6,7 and Isa. 30:26 clearly indicate. It is clear. Jehovah will "judge" His people. -- 1 Peter 4:17

So, Jehovah God and Jesus will always have a congregation, an arrangement to keep the "sheep" together. We will always be grouped together, sheep with sheep, everlastingly, into a congregational setting, as you mentioned in citing Revelation 1:20.

Remember, when the wicked shepherd "scatters the sheep," ... what did God Himself promise...?

To leave them all abandoned! No.

Jehovah promised at Ezekiel 34:16:

"The lost one [literally "perishing one" Ref. Bib. fnt] I shall SEARCH FOR, and the dispersed one I shall bring back, and the broken one I shall bandage and the ailing one I shall strengthen, but the fat one and the strong one I shall ANNIHILATE. I shall feed that one with judgment."

Jehovah judges His people. Rewards one, "judges" another..."searches" for any "lost" from that number.

Jehovah will gather his sheep, that's gather, gather, put them together, in a congregational setting. This has never changed. No matter what the WTS, Governing Body, or anyone else does...

Also, Jesus said at Luke 14:4-6:

"What man of you with a hundred sheep, on losing one of them, will notleave the ninety-nine behind in the wilderness and go for the lost one until he finds it? And when he has found it he puts it upon his shoulders and rejoices. And when he gets home he calls his friends and his neighbors together, saying to them, Rejoice with me, because I have found my sheep that was lost."

Jehovah and Jesus are dedicated to "finding the lost sheep," and BRINGING THEM BACK INTO THE FOLD. That is, if that is the desire of the lost sheep, thats if it is their desire...no one is forced back. That point is clear too.

So then, you see, we will always be a congregated people, always, so the Bible says. -- Rev. 7:9

I hope this has answered your question.

Take Care,

MDS

Edited by - MDS on 11 January 2001 23:53:33

Do we need a 'Faithful and Discrete Slave' ?

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