Do we need a 'Faithful and Discrete Slave' ?

by ISP 62 Replies latest jw friends

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  MDS

  Hi ISP,

  You said:

  These congregations give the impression that they were self governing and therefore it was Jesus who put them right and no one else. I don’t think any could argue with Jesus ability and position in directing affairs. It appears it his intention to leave matters and then offer direct counsel and admonition when he considers appropriate. There does not seem to be any point in having a FDS.

  Also, this

  The question I raised at the beginning still remains – Do we need a FDS? For the Christian you have God’s Word, prayer and the example of Jesus. Do we need anyone else to tell us what to do? In the first century God showed his approval to people who accepted the Good News by pouring out his holy spirit on them. There was not another agency involved

  ....Jesus appeared to summarise the extent of organisation in that he described himself in middle of 7 congregations. There was not a FDS in the middle of the congregations, for example. Same would indicate there is not a major role for the FDS in this setup. In actual fact I do not think we need a FDS.

  The point about the "additional human agency," you may want to rethink. We may need to make an allowance for one more "party", an intermediary one... the APOSTLE John, on the Penal Isle of Patmos.

  The Bible says of "apostles," their role in the christian structure:

  "And he gave some as apostles, some as prophets, some as evangelizing, some as shepherds and teachers with a view to the readjustment of the holy ones, for ministerial work, fur the building up on the body of the Christ." -- Ephesians 4:11

  The "apostles," were put in place by Jesus Christ, for the "readjustment" of the congregations. They were put OVER the congregations, in authority, and could and would appoint "overseers," and "ministerials servants," within each. -- 1 Tim. 3rd chapter, Titus 1st chapter.

  Ask yourself,

  Why did Jesus Himself, yes, see the need to send this all-important message, NOT to the seven congregations FIRST, but to apostle John? Why?

  Yes, the message went to John FIRST.

  Thus, we see that Jesus recognized an important RANK SYSTEM that had approved of long before. A Rank system.

  1 Cor. 12:28 says:

  "And God has set the respective ones in the congregation, first, apostles, second, prophets, third, teachers, then powerful works; then gifts of healings, helpful services, ability to direc, different tongues,"

  This is a "rank system," of authority as to who takes the lead in the congregation and also where they stand with God and Jesus, the head of the christian congregational arrangement as to authority within it.

  So, in harmony with this, Jesus then, begans his explaining in detail of the 'goings on' of every single congregation, good and bad, conduct, in other words,

  "...who did what..."

  ...most appropriately to the Apostle John, the "in-between" human agency, between Christ and the congregation. John is the go-between personal agency, between the two. That is so, because the "apostles" were appointed to take the lead within the entire congregational arrangements, and they were "IN CHARGE" of all such. Christ recognized this fact. So, he thus, funneled all info on the congregations and their respectives "angle/messenger" leaders, first thru John.

  So, most appropriately, the entire profile of the "7 angels," and the "7 different congregations or lampstands," was given to John, the apostle, FIRST. And in turn, John's responsibility was to contact these congregations AND GIVE THEM, Jesus' "judgments" and assessments of each "angel," and of each "congregation."

  And John did this.

  John gives them, Jesus' assessment of each "angel," and each "congregation," -- this was John's job...John's responsibility.

  John, the apostle, is the go-between, person here.

  So, all of this information was transmitted to apostle John, first, and then, later, transmitted to the "angels" of each congregation.

  John was told at Revelation 1:10, 11 the following:

  "...I heard behind me a strong voice like that of a trumpet, saying What you see write in a scroll and send it to the seven congregations,..."

  So, the Bible shows here, that Jesus did use an ADDITIONAL HUMAN AGENCY, this "go-between" authority figure, apostle John. Jesus used him between himself and the "7 Angels," who were in turn over each of the "7 congregations, to give them counsel and stern, life-saving admonition.

  And in turn, John addressed each letter to: "...To the angel of the congregation in Ephesus," etc., etc., etc. -- Rev. 2:1

  The entire Revelation was transmitted, via

  Jehovah, Jesus, Jesus' angel, John, angel of congregation, and then finally to the congregation itself. -- Revelation 1:1

  John, the apostle was that additional human agency between Christ and the congregational "angels" and the "congregations" themselves.

  Is this not so?

  MDS

  Edited by - MDS on 14 January 2001 20:25:9
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  larc

  Nyank,

  MDS also believes that the time period from 1931 to 2001 is very important. He also talks about a seven year period, but doesn't provide and specific information. He also teaches that Jehovah will trample down the JW's very soon for a period of 42 months, then they will be glad to take the cure. Following that they will administer the Abrahamic Covenant to billions. MDS also believes that his role is found in Isaiah 49: 1-6. Be sure to read it.
• 

  ISP

  Hi MDS,

  The Revelation was given to John to record. It is there for all to read thereafter.

  *** Rbi8 Revelation 1:3 ***
  3 Happy is he who reads aloud and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and who observe the things written in it; for the appointed time is near.

  I do not accept that we need a 'John' Class to present the account to you and me. You can read it for yourself. I also accept that congregations would make appointments of older men. But so far as a FDS is concerned I do not see the need and also no mention of same in the structure Jesus mentioned.

  *** Rbi8 Revelation 1:12-13 ***
  12 And I turned to see the voice that was speaking with me, and, having turned, I saw seven golden lampstands, 13 and in the midst of the lampstands someone like a son of man, clothed with a garment that reached down to the feet, and girded at the breasts with a golden girdle.

  'Angels' were mentioned as being in his right hand and in heaven. I would expect these 'Angels' to be spiritual creatures as 'angels' are interpreted as such elsewhere in Revelation so I do not believe these can reasonably understood to be the FDS on earth.

  Hope that helps.

  ISP
• 

  larc

  MDS,

  I forgot to ask. What is specificly going to happen in 2001, or at the end of this very important 70 year period in 2002?
• 

  rwaterman

  Hello. I hope I'm not interrupting your conversation but my friend who wrote a note here, Caretaker, sent me this website. I am not a Jehovah's Witness but my son is. He joined about 9 years ago when he had gotten into a lot of trouble and was very rebellious but was looking for something better. That was when the Jehovahs Witnesses knocked on our door. My son is married now and has 2 beautiful children. He is 26 now. I've watched him over the last 9 years and the one thing that saddens me the most is that life seems to be a great struggle for him as he tries to deal with the "system of things" and that he seems to let life pass him by as he waits for something better. I keep hoping that he'll realize soon that life is to be lived in the present but as of now he is still very much involved with the Jehovah Witness organization. I wish you all the best of luck in your search for truth. RWaterman
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  Pathofthorns

  Hi RWaterman

  I think its great that your son left the "rebelliousness" behind. I do think that many of the Christian principles that Witnesses hold to are beneficial.

  But like you say, the holding out for the end of this "system of things" and the constant struggle is very harmful when that "end" doesn't materialize in the near future.

  I hope you can help your son to appreciate this. Perhaps you can help him plan to a reasonable degree for the future in case the end doesn't come as soon as he is hoping. That way him and his family will be ok.

  You can also show how in the past many Witnesses hoped for the end to come and were disappointed and many found themselves in very difficult and desperate situations. Planning for the future is not only biblically sound, but even the Witnesses these days almost encourage this or at least don't look down on it like they once did.

  Path
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  amicus

  rwaterman,
  You gave a pretty accurate description of the majority of recruits in the early '70's. This is when the WTBTS experienced a phenomenal increase in membership. He's hooked right now, but there is always hope. No harm will come to him or his family. Eventually he may begin to question (a sin in the eyes of a true believer). If and when he does, you can then begin to help him. To do so, you need to educate yourself about the WTBTS. There is a lot of information available on the web. Some say that you can be pleased that your son fell for their deceptions. It appeals mostly to kind, honest, humble individuals. If and when he chooses to leave, he by default, joins a very unique group of x-believers. Visit this site (even as a lurker) to understand what it means to be an X.
  Love and discretion,
  amicus
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  amicus

  Hey Path,
  I didn't mean for my advice to conflict with yours. You just posted a little bit before me.
  (There is unity beyond the borg)
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  thinkers wife

  Welcome RWaterman,
  I think what you said is a very accurate description. Once a person has their eyes opened you can see the importance of living in the here and now.
  The mind set of the JW's can be very dangerous. Especially when it comes to having a family. It is so very important to live in the moment, because that can change the future. I hope this makes sense. I know what I am thinking, but find it hard to put in words.
  It is comforting to know that the JW's do seem to appeal to good honest people, meaning that is what your son is.
  Don't give up hope on him. Many do begin to question, leave, and go on to live good productive lives.
  TW
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  ZazuWitts

  Dear rwaterman,

  Glad you stopped by. Caretaker, your friend, is in a sad situation - as many of us here are/were- I think of him often as all three of my children married in the last few years,(outside of the Watchtower organization) and I am so happy to have been there - I know how deeply troubled and sad I would be if I were in his situation.

  And, having three grown children of my own, I can also relate to your concerns regarding your son. Yes, it is good his past youthful rebellion is, indeed, of the past. It is often younger people who have experienced such events that then find the Watchtower's message to be an answer for their futures...only to later find themselves bogged-down in a highly controlling, scripturally legalistic mind-set. No enjoyment of the delights of life, no real planning for the future, job-wise, financially, or in other ways. So, so, sad, isn't it. They are always waiting for "Armageddon just around the corner" to take care of their concerns.

  Because you are not a Jehovah's Witness, or even an ex-JW, this can work to your advantage - but it won't be an overnight process. I might suggest that you first learn swomething about the actual organization - it would give you more insight as to how best deal with your son. Have you read the book "Crisis of Conscience" by Raymond Franz. If you haven't, I strongly suggest you do so - it will provide you with a good understanding of the Watchtower Society and their history and beliefs. It's probably available at your local library, is at many bookstores, or can be ordered at:

  http://www.WatchtowerNews.Org

  You will also find the site interesting and packed with much info and links to other information (which abounds on the internet - sites vary in approach and quality).

  You might consider calling
  1-800-WHY-1914 - the people operating this group are truly trained in helping other's and could aid you in approaching your son in the best fashion.

  As you have received understanding and very good advice from Path, Amicus, and TW above - you will continue to from others sharing this site - stay around and see what we are talking about. It may seem somewhat confusing at first - but will all fall in place with time. Whenever, or however, you decide to approach/discuss this with your son, first be informed, and then take it ever so slooowly, please.
  Hoping for the best for you and son,
  Zazu