by ISP 62 Replies latest jw friends
larc
'their basic FDS premis which has absolutely no basis.'
It does have a 'basis'. You may not agree with it but it does have a basis.
'If you are going to discard WT teaching, get rid of all of it, not half of it.'
Why?
I will determine what I consider is appropriate to discard/modify/develop not what you do.
ISP
ISP,
Well, there may be a basis for believing that this story has some mysterious meaning beyond the scope of what it says, but I certainly don't see it. I can't think of any logic that would make it so. I think the story is a good one, and I like it in and of itself.
I think people enjoy making things more complicted than they really are, and they also enjoy believing that all kinds of scriptures apply to their time on this earth. I find that to a be an egocentric point of view that has little merit or support. Of course, people have been doing this for thousands of years, as if the holy words applied uniquely to them.
Your right, you can beleive any part of it you want. I would rather start with a clean slate and see where that leads.
Brother larc:
Well, there may be a basis for believing that this story has some mysterious meaning beyond the scope of what it says, but I certainly don't see it.
How in the world did you get suckered into this discussion? Scraping about different interpretations of scripture, the secrete meaning according the WT, and playing scriptural gymnastics is about as much fun as sawing wood with a chain saw without motor. The results are always the same--no one ever says, "Oh, that's right, I see that I'm wrong--thank you for helping me, etc."
"The eyes are not responsible when the mind does the seeing." –Publilius
BTW larc--you're right about Matt. 24:45; now that's the end of the matter! [:0]
JAVA, counting time at the Coffee Shop
Verily, verily, you are right brother JAVA
Hi ISP:
Thank you for your response. I appreciated very much the thought you put into the matter. I hope we can continue the dialogue as I enjoy very much a dialogue that is centred on scripture and highlights common sense and good conscience.
So do I.
I am happy to accept that Matt 24:45 can/will describe an arrangement provided by God. Revelation chapter 2 etc. describes Jesus inspecting his people during the ‘Lords Day’ and his people are to be found in congregations. However has this been fulfilled yet or is it something some have claimed in error. Any such claims have to be looked at closely.
You are quite right.
Actually, this situation as described by Jesus Christ, HAS NOT been fulfilled as of yet. That's the true fulfillment of the Faithful and Discreet Slave of Matt. 24:45-47. It is a future event. The WTS/G.B have taken on a title, and responsibility that does not belong upon them...thus the obvious deviations from scripture, we've seen over the years, as practiced by them.
Before we attempt to understand Matt. 24:45-47, its true meaning, it would be good to make a careful comparison of the Bible account of the "Faithful Steward" as mentioned in Luke 12:42-44. It is very similar to the FD&S of Matthew 24. By making a close comparison of both Biblical accounts, we can make some observations that help us understand the coming, future events, and the FD&S discussion Jesus referred to.
I posted some info about Luke 12:42, a little while back on this board...I will see if I can find it, and re-post it here. And then we can go from there.
Take Care,
MDS
Hi ISP:
I found the post...posted under the other FD&S thread, the earlier one, on January 4, 2001.
--------MDS post-------
In our quest to identify the FDS as mentioned in Matt. 24th chapter, we can do well to give serious consider to another key Bible account. One that is very similar, but providing a very different, very unique clue to help us understand what Jesus was actually pointing forward to.
The Bible account is Luke 12:42 which says:
"And the Lord said: Who really is the faithful steward, the discreet one, whom his master will appoint over his body of attendants [Greek: therapias] to keep giving them their measure of food supplies at the proper time?"
Vines Expository of New Testament Words has this to say about the special word:
"Therapeia primarily denotes care, attention, Luke 12:42; then, medical service healing {Eng. therapy), Luke 9:11; Rev. 22:2, of the effects of the leaves of the tree of life, perhaps here with the meaning "health."
Also, we notice that this "special" Greek word is closely related to:
"Therapeuo Eng., therapeutics, etc., denotes primarily to serve; then, to heal, restore to health, to cure, it is usually translated "to heal," but "cure" in Matt. 17:16, 18; Luke 7:21; 9:1; John 5:10, Acts 28:9,."
Thus, when rendering this particular Greek word at Luke 12:42 , in the New World Kingdom Interlinear Translation, a word for word transliteration of the Greek, the WTS decided to render it as a "Curing Staff", literally. An administrative staff for "Healing" or "Curing," -- thus a staff of "nursing" assistants or, as translated, a "body of attendants," like "nurses," who bring about a "cure" or "healing" to someone else, the patient, who is in critical need of "therapy" or help, by the aforementioned "staff" or ones "attending" upon the ailing one.
Thus, the "Faithful Steward," acting the part of an administrative leader, like a "doctor," then works harmoniously with the aforementioned "body of attendants", "nurses," or christian "assistants" of our time, as God-designated, "Curing Staff" to perform a special "cure." These are other christians who are designated by God, to perform a very special "curing", healing work upon "Israel." This is necessary because, by this time, God will "acted" upon spiritual "Israel" of our day and delivered SEVERE DISCIPLINE upon them for a practice of "sin," and "lawless" deeds, and spiritual "apostasy" practiced. So, God brings about, namely, the "42 months" of trampling as a form of "Discipline." Afterwhich, He will be bring about spiritual "therapy" for "Israel." (Rev. 12:6, 14; 13:5)
Mystery "Israel," will have been struck completely down by God Almighty for her many "disobedient acts." Thus after receiving of God's discipline and admitted "bad treatment" from His Own Hand, they will happily and willingly, become the recipients of "therapy" and spiritual "healing," from the "Faithful Steward" and God's prearranged, "Curing" or Healing Staff, some 200 million strong. -- See Isa. 30:26; Micah 4:6,7; Isa. 44:1-5; Romans 11:25; Rev. 9:16
MDS
Edited by - MDS on 4 January 2001 18:56:2
--------end of post-------
It is indeed, a grand story! Pictorial of our immediate future.
Edited by - MDS on 14 January 2001 13:41:7
Hi MDS,
I don't recolect reading whether or not you were a JW.
I like the fact that you use scripture to back up what you say.
What do you think of the other teachings of the WBTS?
Hell,death,144,000 ect,ect.....?
Thanks,
neyank
Yes, I am a Jehovah's Witnesses, but one that is NOT associated the current organization in its present situation of "apostasy."
Perhaps, you remember many references by the WTS to the churches of Christendom as being "apostate" and using prophecy to indicate that "Israel/Jerusalem" of years gone by, pictorially stand for the churches today, and how they would become "apostate," in the "time of the end."
However, the scriptures reveal, that is really Jehovah's Witnesses, as modern-day "Israel," that would go "apostate," in our time. Jehovah's Witnesses as a nation, under the leadership of the current "Governing Body," are on a collision course with Almighty God. -- Jer. 23:19, 20
Ezekiel 37:23 is a good example of this. It states:
"And they will no longer defile themselves with their dungy idols and with their disgusting things and with all their transgressions; and I shall certainly SAVE THEM from all their DWELLING PLACES [or, "Acts of lawlessness," "apostasies." -- See fnt NWT Ref bib.] in which they have sinned, and I will cleanse them, and THEY MUST BECOME MY PEOPLE, AND I MYSELF SHALL BECOME THEIR GOD."
A clue:
Actually, the last part of this verse reminds us of Rev. 21:3 which says:
"...Look! The Tent of God is with mankind. And he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them."
This is a now, cleansed, spiritually chaste "Israel," now. Free from "apostasy," and "lawlessness." No, there is no a "curse" upon Jerusalem. (Rev. 22:3) The "curse" is lifted off "Israel," and "Jerusalem." Now, Jerusalem has been "cured" by the "leaves from the trees," the 200 million "trees," the "curing staff," of Luke 12:42. "All Israel, is saved by bringing the ("fullness" or) FULL NUMBER OF THE GENTILES in", as indicated by Romans 11:25. Jehovah has miraculously done this. To "cure" Israel. -- Rev. 22:1-3
So, we are talking about the same people, spiritual "Israel," modern day Jehovah's Witnesses, as a nation, having to be "cleansed," from their "acts of lawlessness," "apostasies," as they learned these wicked ways, from the infamous, "man of lawlessness," who has been "presiding" over them, in the "Temple of [The] God," the temple of Jehovah, and "publicly showing himself to be a god," one to worshiped, right within Jehovah's temple, and right among God's Name people...this wicked one who is there by the "operation of Satan," the wicked Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses. -- Please see 2 Thess. 2:3-12.
For their total UNREPENTANCE of obvious "sins" committed over the years, and their disgraceful uncooperative spirit they have manifested with confronted with their "sins," as are well discussed on this public forum and elsewhere, now...now they must "collide" with God Himself, who is Almighty. They will fall as a nation, completely -- be completely disgraced, publicly, before all of the world...
After this tremendous "collision" with God, they will have to be "rebuilt," "restored" to spiritual health again to gain God's favor. -- Isa. 30:26; Micah 4:6,7
THEY WILL THEN, REPENT, REPENT, REPENT before their God. They must do this. They must renounce their past wicked ways. They must recognize they "they have sinned," before their God. They must "bear His rage," against them. Prophecy indicates, that they will do this. -- See Micah 7:9
Afterwhich, after being "restored," finally, they will be allowed to administer, the Grand, Awesome, ABRAHAMIC COVENANT to billions, to all of the nations that willingly and cooperatively "stream to the Mountain of Jehovah" for salvation. -- Isa. 2:2-4; Micah 4:1-4
My thoughts on "death," and "hell," -- Death, "unconscious state of man," and "hell" being the common grave, same as WTS and nation of spiritual "Israel." They are correct on this. They have a basic "framework" or "outline" of the "knowledge of the truth," as Paul said at Romans 2:20, the same as the "Jewish nation," of his day. But not the COMPLETE picture, not all of the facts. Thus their present understanding of Scripture, is incomplete, skewed and they are thus, easily misled [by the G.B. and WTS] because of it.
However, the 144,000 doctrine, this is a very deep subject...a grand one indeed. :-)
If you want to get into it, it will take some "explaining." But...we can do that too.
Take Care,
MDS
Edited by - MDS on 14 January 2001 14:34:43
Hi MDS,
I can understand where you are coming from with your belief re. the FDS. You believe that such a slave class has not yet been appointed and with reasonable grounds. Those who have claimed the title have not ‘delivered the goods’ so to speak.
The question I raised at the beginning still remains – Do we need a FDS? For the Christian you have God’s Word, prayer and the example of Jesus. Do we need anyone else to tell us what to do? In the first century God showed his approval to people who accepted the Good News by pouring out his holy spirit on them. There was not another agency involved.
Jesus appeared to summarise the extent of organisation in that he described himself in middle of 7 congregations. There was not a FDS in the middle of the congregations, for example. Same would indicate there is not a major role for the FDS in this setup. In actual fact I do not think we need a FDS.
*** Rbi8 Revelation 1:12-13 ***
12 And I turned to see the voice that was speaking with me, and, having turned, I saw seven golden lampstands, 13 and in the midst of the lampstands someone like a son of man, clothed with a garment that reached down to the feet, and girded at the breasts with a golden girdle.
*** Rbi8 Revelation 1:20 ***
20 As for the sacred secret of the seven stars that you saw upon my right hand, and [of] the seven golden lampstands: The seven stars mean [the] angels of the seven congregations, and the seven lampstands mean seven congregations.
Further evidence of the lack of involvement of the FDS is when counsel is given to the congregations. The admonition/praise is given directly to the congregations. It is not given to a GB or FDS to pass onto the congregations that need it or to congregations that don’t need it as often happens today. It also appears that the congregations operated with some independence and hence with responsibility for the own actions or inaction. At least one tolerated a female teacher which would not be norm in WT world. One had become lukewarm. These congregations give the impression that they were self governing and therefore it was Jesus who put them right and no one else. I don’t think any could argue with Jesus ability and position in directing affairs. It appears it his intention to leave matters and then offer direct counsel and admonition when he considers appropriate. There does not seem to be any point in having a FDS.
So far as the JW’s today are concerned you made a number of statements regarding apostasy etc. I am not going to deal with the references but suffice it to say all the congregations have to do is operate in an independent manner with reference to the GB/FDS and ‘Let God Be True’. It starts with the individuals that make up the congregations. There was a recent article on it. It dealt with 'Authority' figures and IMO the GB/FDS would be included.
1/12/00 WT ‘ Must You Believe It?’ These quotes are all from the article.
‘1 John 4.1. [ test the inspired expressions etc.] not to believe too quickly everything you hear, even when it appears to come from an authoritative source.’
‘But neither should you be ‘quickly shaken from your reason’ in the face of pressure from someone who claims to have great knowledge or authority.’
‘In contrast with the confusing opinions of men, God’s inspired Word provides a solid foundation on which we can base our beliefs…..Without it we are left in the impossible situation of trying to build something solid on the shifting sands of human theories and philosophies.’
‘The apostle Paul encouraged his fellow Christians to make full use of their ‘power of reason’ to prove to [themselves] the good and acceptable and perfect will of God’.- Romans 12:1,2.’
‘Whatever authority people may arrogate to themselves, you do not have to accept their conclusions if they contradict God, ignore his Word, and violate common sense. In the final analysis, the wise course is always to ‘let God be found true, though every man be found a liar.’’
ISP
ISP,
Refresh my memory, are you a witness?
TW
