Ya'll dont believe in God?

by flower 125 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  Utopian Reformist

  This thread is very important to me in a personal way. Last saturday morning, after having my usual coffee, I entered my office for some quiet time.

  My version of quiet time involves listening to 60's & 70's protest music with headphones and an open window. Well, as usual, the music and lyrics creates a melancholy and reflective mood. This time it was much more intense. I listened to Barry McGuire's "Eve of Destruction" several times and Coven's "One Tin Soldier" and many others over and over again. Then after I am finished reminiscing about the past, my youth, my family in the "old country" and my mistakes, I shed some quiet tears and begin my day.

  This time the effects and moods lasted much longer. I began to reflect on religion and the WTBS and the Bible while the music was playing. A "new experience" happened for the first time in my life. I suddenly realized that since the beginning of the origin and exodus of judeo-christian religions from the middle-east into the western world, that the men/leaders/clerics/scholars/teachers NEVER REALLY KNEW AT ALL if they were right.

  I suddenly realized that as they met and sat together and they contemplated, researched, pondered, wondered, speculated, prophesied, predicted, interpreted, that in fact, they themselves were fully aware that they had no absolute proof of anything at all! They weren't providing any information or revelation that any other human couldn't conujure up for themselves, minus the organizational control, policy making and subjugation.

  I kept saying to myself over and over, "they knew all along", "they knew all along" that they could only specualate and guess. Thousands of now famous historical ancient men explaining and interpreting fear and superstition for mankind and commanding authority for doing so!

  Why? How could they continue to do this and then pass it on from generation to generation? The answer came to me from the simple and straightforward lyrics of yesterday's songs from the past, they all believed that "GOD" would "help and support" them if they went public and brought their teachings to the public. They assumed authority under the principle that someone had to in order to defend "GOD" and the bible and that they would be blessed and progress, even without proof! Audacious isn't it?

  But, isn't that how religions start? After all of this transpired, the anger arrived. I kept picturing the GB and other religious leaders (Pope, Synods, etc) meeting in groups and deciding policies that affect human lives, without conscience, assuming they are performing a service. How dare they?

  Now, I am convinced that humans and religions CANNOT represent "GOD" or the "Supreme Being". He/She/It can only represent itself!
• 

  flower

  abaddon,

  wow good answers all. really good..thanks! i stated this one wrong.." Being out of the org and free to be friends with or love or marry whomever we choose is so wonderful, but now we still have restrictions". what i was saying is that now we still are not free to do those things because 'belief or non belief' is still in the way and restricts who we can be with. but i dont know if i still feel that way after reading some of the responses. perhaps it is possible to put that aside just like i would put it aside if i was with someone who was of a different religion. you and your gf seem to have done it and puffsrule and her dh. i guess love prevails if it is true love.

  ashitaka,
  thanks that is probably right.

  puffsrule,
  wow thanks for sharing your story. i guess it is possible to love each other and be happy together then. thats comforting to know.

  rem,
  thanks for the response and the book suggestions.
• 

  Utopian Reformist

  The fact that religious leaders would continue propogating "speculative interpretations" packaged with organizational/denominational policies is disgusting.

  When science, history, and archeology reveal the countless major gaps in human religion, it becomes more obvious. It only requires rational thought and meditation to understand how mankind has been "duped" for thousands of years. The never-ending struggle, suffering, death, pain that religion has caused is such a monumental tragedy and "stain" on human history.

  We have been offered "faith" as a consolation prize or better yet, "rose-colored" glasses from which to avoid the obvious evidence from our own universe and planet. "Faith" in what ancient men have provided as explanations for our existence, based on their limited knowledge and discovery.

  If the Creator, Source, Supreme Being is watching, he/she/it may have decided we are still light years away from being ready for contact!

  We haven't been able to handle the simple concept of "he/She/It's" existence too well thus far, why intervene further?
• 

  gilwarrior

  I believe that there is a higher power, but I don't believe in organized religion. I believe that if a person reads bible on their own that is sufficient.

  "I have so much love to give, but no one to give it to."

  William H. Macy - "Magnolia"
• 

  larc

  Flower,

  I have given considerable thought to the subject of God. I have come to the conclusion that there is no way of knowing. This puts me squarely in the agnostic camp. If there is a God, I don't think he would judge me harshly for that conclusion.

  Now, how do I think one should live? Try to do the best you know how, with the knowledge and resources you have. Try to do no harm. Pursue your own interests. Find people you enjoy, who are good to you. I don't think it is necessary to do good because a God is judging us. I think goodness is its own reward. If there is something beyond this life, well, that will be a pleasant surprise.

  Now, you stated that atheists/agnostics attack believers. This only occurs if the believer attacks us or trys to push their beliefs on us. Notice, that you were not attacked. You are still in the believer camp, but you asked your questions in an honest, forthright manner. It was clear that you did not have an ax to grind. That is why you were treated well.

  Can believers and nonbelievers get along? Yes indeed. My wife and I left the JWs together. I became an agnostic and she became kind of new age, spiritual generic Christian, something like that. Our difference in outlook has never been a source of conflict between us. Why? Because neither of us is trying to convert the other to their way of thinking.

  Well, those are some of my thoughts. Good luck on your exciting and scary journey.
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  rhett

  There's this high school kid that is on another, totally unrelated, email list that I belong to. Someone started bringing up religion (really stupid thing to do in that group) and the high school kid made the best point I've ever heard concerning god and religion. I don't remember exactly how he said it but it was something along the lines of thousands of years ago people didn't know as much about the world that surrounds them so they attributed everything to god and made all kinds of claims and stories to support that belief. Thousands of years later we know why things are the way they are and can explain it scientifically so really god and religion have out grown their usefulness. As far as not being able to function without knowing that there's a purpose and that god will always be there for you I find it the exact opposite. Personally, I find it extremely comforting to know the purpose in life is whatever I want it to be. Personally, I feel luckier that we were able to evolve to the state that we are in now out of all the possible things that have happened in the billions of years that the universe has been here.
  Someone said something earlier about when major life changes happen that's when people will really find whatever form of god they believe in. Not true. Whenever my wife got pregnant is exactly when I started to not believe in god and religion. I wanted to be able to show my son what I think is the best way to believe so I started looking at my beliefs and realized what a load of crap it ALL is. I must say, my life has actually been much better now that I've thrown all that away.

  I don't need to fight
  To prove I'm right
  I don't need to be forgiven.
• 

  flower

  larc,

  thanks for sharing your thoughts. you make a lot of sense. actually i didnt say that athiests/agnostics attack believers. i did say that i have seen athiests together making fun of or mocking God or the idea of a God. but i admit that once i stated that i was uncomfortable with that they didnt do it anymore. you are right its about respect..giving and recieving. 'do unto others..' is a philosophy to live by whether we believe or not.

  i guess one thing i dont understand is where an athiest or agnostic sets their limits. i feel like if i didnt have a christian conscience that i may not be able to differentiate between what is right and wrong.

  when deciding what is acceptable behavior in life i refer to my christian conscience. i know murder is wrong..everyone does. but is stealing just as blatanly wrong to everyone...even athiests? is lying wrong to someone who doesnt believe in God? what about things like beastiality? i mean what is the rule of thumb..as long as no one gets hurt then anything and everything goes in life? i think if i was an athiest i might think that if i can steal from some billion dollar company or rich person who doesnt need it and get away with it scott free i would do it because no one is getting hurt. but as a christian my conscience tells me that its wrong and that God would not approve.

  it sounds like as a christian i am still living my life as if under the watchful eye of God and still trying to please him and gain his approval. but on the other hand i dont feel forced to do good things or be good anymore..i do it because i want to. i really do want to but then sometimes i'm not good and i beat myself up over it still. am i screwed up enough or what? LOL.

  it helps to discuss it with people..thanks all.

  flower
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  NameWithheld

  Wow larC, you just neatly summed up almost exactly my feelings on this matter too!
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  NameWithheld

  Flower, as a somewhat simplistic answer to you (good) observations, as a whole, the human moral code is based more on our environment than anything else. Why do you feel it's wrong to steal, even from a billion dollar co? Because you were raised in an environment that felt that way too. It really has little to do with god/no god. Just because someone chooses not to believe in a god doesn't automatically make them immoral. People who might feel inclined to 'break the law' probably fear jail/gov't punishment as much or more than fear of displeasing god. It really comes down to what a person feels in their heart (conscience).

  For every one 'bad' athiest, I can show you one 'bad' christian/hindu/muslum/communist/whatever. People are people no matter what belief they ascribe to. Some people do things that the majority of society frowns upon. Always have. Probably always will.

  Agnostics then set their limits based on many things - upbringing, current personal beliefs, etc. Many agnostic/atheists are very good people whose beliefs(non-beliefs?) cause them to be very respectful of life, other humans, the earth, etc. Since we don't feel that god will swope down and save us despite ourselves, we tend to try and take care of what we have - ourselves, family, the earth, etc.

  We have dramatic, and yes extreme, proof of what fundimentalism can do - those people who flew into the WTC truely believed with all their heart, soul, and mind that they were doing right in god's eyes, and that they would be instantly in paradise. It would be MUCH harder for an athiest to perform such a task.
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  ashitaka

  I agree with Name...our limits are within ourselves, which makes us stronger people, rather than being force-fed them until we agree with a specific moral code....IMHO.

  ashi