Faith and the Bible

by tec 90 Replies latest jw friends

tec

Thank you for your kindness Vander.
myelaine

dear Tammy...
in the scripture that I quoted the alter is the Truth and the temple is the body which makes the sacrifice of service...
Fools and blind! For which is greater, the gold or the temple that sanctifies the gold? And, ‘Whoever swears by the altar, it is nothing; but whoever swears by the gift that is on it, he is obliged to perform it.’ Fools and blind! For which is greater, the gift or the altar that sanctifies the gift? Therefore he who swears by the altar, swears by it and by all things on it. He who swears by the temple, swears by it and by Him who dwells [b] in it. And he who swears by heaven, swears by the throne of God and by Him who sits on it. matthew 23:17-22
Jesus is comparing...swearing by the Truth is nothing but swearing by the gift(love/works) is obliged to preform it...then He asks which is greater the gift(love/works) or the alter (Truth) the cause of the sacrifice of the gift. He goes on to say in the positive of the other one, whoever swears by the Truth, swears by it and by all things. as well, he swears by the temple(body which houses the Truth)...and by extention, heaven, the throne of God and Him who sits on it.
basicly...one says that showing love/gift as a form of works is better than the Truth...and by swearing by the gift, is obliged to perform it. but Jesus asks, which is greater?
the other one swears by the Truth and by everything he does (love and works) and by that he is swearing by all things of God.
the whole text is condensed in james 2:18...the Holy Spirit showed me that last night...
you said: (which is to say that there are as many intepretations of this book as their are denominations of Christianity)....of course this is a grosse exageration and so it isn't true.
you said: "Instead, because he did not say what you wanted him to say (which is to condemn me with his words), then you judge him as lying in full knowledge to God and in danger of dropping dead? "...it was a teaching moment like I said, why do you accuse me of wanting Vander to drop dead?...I'm not showing you this stuff because I want to harm anyone(preaching the truth about the Truth IS part of my faith)...for the most part I have quoted scripture...the words of Jesus Christ word for word and have stayed well within "THE FAITH" delivered once for all to the saints (without showing bias towards any "denomination")...but you have done nothing but reject anything I've said wholesale...which begs the question, why DO you believe anything in the bible if it offends you so much?
love michelle...xo
myelaine

dear Vander...
I just think you're a sucker...
still love you though and you are both in my prayers.
michelle...xo
AGuest

If you continue to read verses 19 - 21, you might have a better understanding of a verse that you seem to be using to condemn.
Omigosh, I was SO wondering when someone was going to point out that Michelle didn't have a proper understanding of a verse she is trying to use to condemn! THANK you for doing so, dear tec (the greatest of love and peace to you, dear one!). IF Michelle knew the Bible as much as she claims to, she would know that when my Lord spoke these words, he wasn't judging at all (indeed, HE judges NO ONE... but turns the judging back over to the Father... after Satan is sent to the Lake of Fire).
What he was trying to tell them was the TRUTH: that without HIM, they would die in their sins. Because only HE could save them/bring them back FROM death... TO life. Otherwise, they would die... and STAY dead, because they would be resurrected to judgment. Thus, he asked them, in essence, "Who will save YOU from Gehenna?" ("HOW are YOU going to escape?" Matthew 23:33)
What she and others don't understand can be found in the answer to Jer's question:
is it good enough to love and live right by others, or do you have to try to 'know' Him?
In order to resurrected by HIM... to ETERNAL life... as a KING AND PRIEST who co-rules with him... one MUST be in union with Christ. That union results in KNOWING him. It is the same as when a man "knows" a woman... in the FLESH... so that the two become ONE flesh; these become ONE spirit... with Christ. Which is why they are called his "Bride."
HOWEVER... who are these to be kings and priests OVER? It is those first mentioned, those who love... and live right by... others. Who are they? They are those who show themselves to be like Rahabwho, although not KNOWING the God of the Israelites, the Most Holy One of Israel, HERSELF... not YET... did GOOD to those who DID so know Him anyway. THESE... are the "sheep" that my Lords speaks of in his words recorded at Matthew 25:34-40.
The WTBTS has it right in that there are two (2) groups; however, one of those groups is NOT included in "the little flock", the "other sheep", the "144,000" OR the "great crowd" (in deed, THESE make up ONE group, have ONE faith, ONE hope, ONE baptism, ONE lord - and so rule OVER the other group). Besides those, however, are those who are considered "sheep"... by means of how they treated even the LEAST ones of Christ's brothers (which would include ANY Jew/Israelite... even those who did NOT put their faith in him - LEAST ones).
I find it quite interesting that many... even here... believe themselves to belong to God, yet reject the notion that they are of the HOUSEHOLD of God, ISRAEL. Yet, God has no other household!. Or believe that His promise (and thus, obligations) are to anyone OTHER than Israel. Yes, the world may partake of that promise... but NOT outside of ISRAEL. Because ISRAEL is the ONLY nation that He has called His own... and promised to care for. What of the "nations"? The nations must COME INTO ISRAEL... ENTER INTO "JERUSALEM".
Am I speaking of the worldly state of Israel? The culture and heritage of the Jews? No. THAT is the Israel that is joined to God through Moses. I am speaking of the TRUE Israel... the nation joined to God... through CHRIST. She who is the NEW Jerusalem.
God turned His attention AWAY from Israel that is bound to Him through Moses... and turned His attention TO the nations... to take out of THEM a people for His name. They, along with those of Moses' Israel who remained FAITHFUL... make up the NEW "Jerusalem"... the TRUE Israel of God.
Yes, this is all in the Bible. But, as my Lord is also recorded to have said, not all will get these truths. Not all are meant to.
I bid you all peace!
A slave of Christ,
SA
tec

Michelle, I have a very hard time understanding what you mean sometimes (or maybe its just that I don't understand what you believe), so I go to the scriptures you quote and hope to get a better understanding from them.
James 2:17-19 basically states that faith without deeds is dead. That just believing in God means nothing... even the demons believe it, but so what? You have to DO as well as believe. I agree with everything James is saying here, so I'm not sure what your point is in referring me to it?
Christ (Truth) and love cannot be in conflict. So if someone's truth is in conflict with love, then how can it be truth? (yes, as Christ showed us how love is to be... but as humans we do mess up our understanding of that... perhaps the reason that love covers over a multitude of sins - sins that we are bound to commit)
it was a teaching moment like I said, why do you accuse me of wanting Vander to drop dead?
You should read what I said again. I did not accuse you of wanting that. I said that (and more) was the summary of Annanias and Saphirra. You are the one who compared Vander and I to them. So the connection is there already... unless you meant something completely different by your 'teaching moment'. But it is not evident in what you said.
...I'm not showing you this stuff because I want to harm anyone(preaching the truth about the Truth IS part of my faith)...for the most part I have quoted scripture...the words of Jesus Christ word for word and have stayed well within "THE FAITH" delivered once for all to the saints (without showing bias towards any "denomination")...but you have done nothing but reject anything I've said wholesale...which begs the question, why DO you believe anything in the bible if it offends you so much?
You continue to try and put words in my mouth. The bible doesn't offend me at all. I listen to Christ first and there is NOTHING that he says that offends me - so anything in the bible that might be (or seem to be) in conflict with Him, I just dismiss as either mistranslated, in error, or simply misunderstood (perhaps by me). No need for offense.
Twisting what he meant or who he is, or who His Father is... I won't say that it offends me, per say, (although it can on their behalf sometimes)... but I will do my best to counter false statements about either of them. Out of love for them, and for others who might actually want to know them, but are hindered by false teaching/ideas... such as the ones that OTWO has above. (Not trying to annoy you OTWO. Just hoping to make a point about those who turn away or harbor resentment over false representation, and you just happen to be in this thread.)
I don't see that you have for the most part quoted scripture word for word. You have placed your interpretation on his words (especially that bit about revelation and the beast). I haven't rejected everything you have said wholesale... I have looked at every individual thing that you have said on its own. I just don't agree with most of it. It seems judgmental to me, and presumptious. But on another thread you agreed with AGuest that love covers over a multitude of sins. I agree with that.
Peace,
Tammy
Fernando

Tammy,
Religion taught us that faith is the same as belief (which emanates from man). Our journey out of religion has taught us that faith (which emanates from God) is a wide opening of our spiritual eyes of discernment (Isa 61:1). This follows hearing and accepting the word or message (gospel) about Jesus (Rom 10:16,17) which includes a right and clean standing by IMPUTATION as free gifts by unmerited favour ("sinner saints").
Yours in him
Vanderhoven7

Right on Fernando!
My dad use to have a bumper sticker that read, "After religion, try Jesus".
It's His blood that purifies us from all sin.
ShadesofGrey

No amount of Biblical knowledge will make anyone's worship acceptable.
John 4:24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit
Fernando

Vanderhoven7 - thank you.
ShadesofGrey - too true. No wonder the Watchtower changed John 17:3. Don't know how they missed Matt 7:23. Apparently the original Greek word rendered "knowing" Jesus and his father means an intimate relationship as in when a man "knows" a woman intimately.
ProdigalSon

Tammy: Nah, Terry just doesn't have or understand faith. And while belief can do all the those things he said, faith can also give hope to those with no hope. Strength to those with no strength. Love to those with no love. Peace to those with no peace.
I think Terry understands faith perfectly... it's perfectly meaningless. Faith in anything that may not be true will only keep a person from living in the now. They will perpetually be looking forward to something better instead of proactively changing the present. WE control the future. Not God, not Jesus, not the "Kingdom". WE do. If you read the gospels the Church banned instead of only believing the ones they allowed and/or fabricated, you would see this truth.
What happens when a person finds out they wasted their whole life hoping for something that was a complete fantasy? Then what?

Faith and the Bible

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