Does the Issue of Universal Sovereignty make sense to you as an explanation for evil?

by gubberningbody 233 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  AGuest

  So let us imagine that being in The Gods' image (let us make man in our image, Genesis 1:26), means we are everything

  Greetings, dear N.drew, and the greatest of love and peace to you. Please forgive me... and it is NOT my intent to contend but only to correct a false belief that many, including perhaps your dear self, have... and that is the notion that we were/are made in God's image. That is not the truth, dear one. Adham (and Eve)... "man"... was made in God's image, yes. That image is what Adham bore BEFORE he sinned. WE... man as you know him SINCE Adham... was made in Adham's image: the one he was given and so possessed AFTER he sinned:

  "... Adam lived on for a hundred and thirty years. Then he became father to a son in his likeness, in his image, and called his name Seth." Genesis 5:3.

  "As the one made of dust [is], so those made of dust [are] also; and as the heavenly one [is], so those who are heavenly [are] also.And just as we have borne the image of the one made of dust, we shall bear also the image of the heavenly one." 1 Corinthians 15:48, 49

  This error is what leads many to misunderstand the Most Holy One of Israel, Himself (well, besides the fact that they don't/won't look at the One who IS the image of God, the Holy One of Israel, His Son and Christ, JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH). They contend on the basis of, "Well, if WE were made in God's image, then all you have to do is look at US and you will see God!" This is a LIE: if you look at US... you will see Adham: haughty, disobedient, rebellious, disloyal... and unfaithful. If, however, you look at Christ, the image of God... you will see GOD; not man.

  It is BECAUSE we bear Adham's image that you see what you do among mankind... from Cain AND Abel... down to today: some rebellion, disloyalty, hate, etc.,... and some obedience, loyalty, love, etc. When man finally bears GOD's image, however, you will only see that manifest by Abel (that which is "acceptable" to God: love, joy, peace, faith, mildness, goodness, kindness, long-suffering, and self control... as well as mercy and justice, etc.). Hence, those traits of the FLESH (i.e., disobedience, rebellion, disloyalty, hate, unfaithfulness... and all of the "fruits" that go with that) will be what's "lacking". Genesis 3:23, 24; John 10:9

  Man will attain to God's image once he is released from the SOILED "outer garment" (the "long garment of skin" given Adham and genetically passed to his progeny)... and restored to the ORIGINAL body (i.e., the "white robe"... the "clean outer garment"), which is the one that can "go in AND out" between the physical and spirit realms (as did Adham's when he was made in GOD'S "image", so that although he was formed in the realm OUTSIDE he could be and was placed INSIDE [the garden]). That Adham COULD go in and out is shown by the fact that he was restricted from doing so UNTIL he ate and was permanently cast out... and prevented from re-entering.

  It is because we exist in ADHAM's image... that we are separated FROM God: our flesh is the "curtain" that stands between us and God. Christ, however, was put in PLACE of that curtain, our flesh... so that through HIM... we can "enter" into the spirit realm, so as to stand before the Most Holy. He, then, is now the "curtain" that we must pass through... the Door that we must "seek", "knock" on... and "ask"... so as to be granted entry... and see God.

  We cannot do it through the "curtain"... that is our own flesh.

  I hope this helps and, again, peace to you!

  YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,

  SA
• 

  N.drew

  Yes, thank you, I think it helps. But I am talking about Adam and the possibility. What Jesus means to me is the possibility that "we", whoever "might", will perform our mission, that was Adam's mission (that he lost) that is now ours if we believe Jesus. I am sure we agree on that what you said, but I am looking at it differently. You seem to say "it will be", I am saying "let's make it be".

  Can you tell me how Adam is in God's image?

  That was the point of my post. HOW

  What the how means to me "keep seeking" "keep asking" "keep knocking".

  Happy are they that mourn. Shelby, what is it he means, what do you mourn?

  I will tell you how I am perfecting mourning. It is what you said in your post above.

  I mourn the clear image that was lost. It can be resurrected. I'm not talking about

  Jesus' resurrection. I am speaking for humankind.

  "No one was destroyed, but the son of destruction" John 17:12.

  What went wrong? The sin is taking it personally. That is what "Eve" did.
• 

  AGuest

  Yes, I see now what you meant, dear N.Drew (again, peace to you!). Thank you for the clarification!

  Again, peace to you!

  YOUR servant, sister, and a slave of Christ,

  SA
• 

  N.drew

  Should I knock you over your figurative head, my dear Shelby, because you did not answer my QUESTION? Two questions.

  But I like you so much that I think I shan't. It is certainly OK that you might view them rhetorically. Peace sister!

  And Love!!!
• 

  AGuest

  OH! I DID think them rhetorical, dear N.drew (again, peace to you!). My apologies!

  Can you tell me how Adam is in God's image?

  At the time he was created, Adham dad a body that was flesh... with God's blood (holy spirit) in it. By means of that blood, he could "transcend" the physical (it was not enslaved, yet), so that it could go in and out between the physical and spirit realms. As a result of this body and its abilities, he could also see/hear/taste/touch/smell beyond the physical. In addition, there was NO corruption in that body - no sin (sickness, disease, aging) or death (it could not die; however, it could be destroyed). Because there was no corruption in that body, there was no "battle", per se - nothing to induce, intice, persuade, convince, etc., Adham to "do" anything he didn't WANT to do. Thus, anything HE did... was purely by means of his own choice. No "enemy" of his spirit. Unlike us (and Cain/Abel, who were HIS sons)... Adham was like Christ: a direct son of God (indeed, the only other son of God, for now). We, like Cain/Abel, are... as to the flesh... son(s) of Adham. Through Christ, though... who grants us an adoption by means of holy spirit... we, sons of Adham by means of our flesh... can given bodies that ARE in the image of God - "white robes" - which have GOD's blood (holy spirit) within them.

  Once he rejected God as his father, however... which he did by obeying another, Death... constituting THAT one as his "father"... Adham was given a body that reflected his [new] father: one with sin... and death... IN it. Which is the body WE currently have. In this way, he (and we) became "slaves" to the "law" of his [new] father, Death. So... the bodies that came FROM that father... die. That is its legacy. It is only when we take on the body that comes from the Most Holy One of Israel, the Father of our Lord... that we exist in vessels that don't die.

  The SPIRIT... never dies; it must be destroyed (which can only be done by fire). When the fleshly body dies, the spirit merely sleeps... until it is resurrected: either to (1) the spirit body/"white robe", with holy spirit as its blood, or (2) another body of flesh with its blood (after which it is either changed to a "white robe" or destroyed along WITH that body (the "second death").

  In addition, Adham was made in God's image in that he had both male and female "in" him; hence, Eve... came OUT of Adham.

  Shelby, what is it he means, what do you mourn?

  Several things, dear one: man's treatment/domination of his fellow man... his inability to grasp, so as to see the reality of Christ, so that he can see God... his insecurity, distrust, disloyalty, and lack of faith... due to the lies, deception, wickedness, falsehood, etc., of his fellowman and their teachings... Israel's separation from God... Israel's failure to hear... and heed... the call to return to its husbandly-owner and protector... man's inability to see WHO God has agreed to love and protect... and why... and his inability to SEE that the Most Holy One is a God of SERVICE, and only wishes to SERVE man... which is what He is trying to TEACH man, through His Son, etc.,... his inability to see, as a result of his inability to see God... his TRUE position in relation to the other life forms on earth, that it is NOT one of superiority, but of responsibility... and, as a result of all of this and more the lack of love... peace... and life... among man. Those are only a few things that I mourn, dear one.

  BUT... the Most Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies, is also a God of JOY... and joy is a FRUIT of His [holy] spirit... and so while I do mourn, I also rejoice. Over a great many things, far too many to name here.

  Again, I apologize if I missed the direction of your questions, but I hope this helps clarify.

  Again, peace to you!

  YOUR servant, sister, and a slave of Christ,

  SA
• 

  N.drew

  I am assuming you are being perfectly honest about the in and out between physical and spirit. But this is the first time I ever heard of it. Of course then, I disagree, which I am free to do. I guess. If it is true, I am not there yet. The white robes, I believe, picture accurate knowledge of The Word.

  I understand the mourning to be related to the Kingdom, not to the world.

  Thank you for coming back to reply! Peace!
• 

  gubberningbody

  Tec - Nancy

  I read your explanation and you posit:

  1. To have free will necessitates the possibility of acting in such a way that a child is raped.

  2. Fighting and overcoming the pain of child rape produces good qualities in people which couldn't have come without child rape.

  You're wrong.

  Here's why:

  1. You can easily see that we are limited with free will such that we can't a rape child with our thoughts. Why not make that an impossibility to act on?

  2. We'd hardly excuse the government official who knew and had the ability to stop the rape of a child and refused to do so because of all the good qualities overcoming being raped as a child would produce.

  So why does God get off the moral hook?

  Present that lame excuse as an elected official to your constituents and see how that gets you un-elected and in jail.
• 

  tec

  2. Fighting and overcoming the pain of child rape produces good qualities in people which couldn't have come without child rape.

  No, definitely not.

  Here is the thing.

  WE are the cause of all the suffering in this world. WE are the ones who hurt one another. God does not cause suffering.

  Suffering, however, can and does serve a purpose - in that it can create empathy (in the one suffering, or MORE in the ones seeing someone suffer), and it can teach someone that they should stop their hurting of others (once they realize how it feels). Not always, of course. Sometimes it is just a cause of hurt.

  Can God stop all the things that cause people to suffer? Not without stopping the people themselves, imo.

  He will do this... but He will not hurt the innocent. Nor forsake any of those who belong to Him (through His son, and those who His Son said would enter the kingdom because of the good they did to even the least of his brothers) have been called out (of whatever dark place they are in). He knows the time to do this. We do not. What we can do is listen to His Son... love, forgive, show mercy, do good to others, feed and clothe the poor, etc, etc - in other words, help one another. Or if you can do all of those things on your own volition, then all the more power to you.

  Peace,

  Tammy
• 

  N.drew

  replying not to Tammy, but the other one;

  No, I don't think so. I believe rape is always wrong and it hardly ever, probably never results in anything better then if it never happened. I shall not go see the post where you think I wrote that, I don't believe it.

  And I agree with you rape should be physically impossible to do, but unfortunitly it is closely related to something that most people like very much. And if rape were impossible, it is fair to say theft should be too. And murder. And cheating, Lying. And yes, that too. I'm kidding, just "hearing" voices. Now where did I put my damn (oh, that too) medicine? I think stubborn SOB should be impossible. Not you. Oh and if we are shopping for real, lets say everyone knows how to spell. How about that? I'm not insulting you, it's me. I suck at spelling.

  Oh here's a good one; taking things personal, that's on my list as the first thing to go....

  What evil thing do You want to vanish? I know what meangirl will extinguish first. HI! I miss you!
• 

  gubberningbody

  Tec -

  Agreed we hurt each other, but..

  He allows it

  You say he's going to do something about it to stop it but..

  You can't explain the delay

  And without any evidence you say he's going to make it all worth it