Keep chanting that mantra
Perhaps you'll really believe it some day
In the meantime people are suffering and dying
God can and supposedly will stop it at some point
But not today
Never Today
And no one has a good answer as to why
Does the Issue of Universal Sovereignty make sense to you as an explanation for evil?
by gubberningbody 233 Replies latest jw friends
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talesin
N. Drew (and others) -- have you ever read Jean Vanier?
He died not too long ago, and was a well-known Catholic theologian and scholar. One of his focuses of study was 'the nature of good and evil'. Tho I'm not a believer, I have read his works,,, very interesting stuff! Anyone who is a believer would, I think, truly enjoy reading him.
tal
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sizemik
Why birth defects kill people? . . . sin from Adam . . . man's doing.
Why transmittable diseases kill people? . . . sin from Adam . . . man's doing.
Why war and crime kills people? . . . sin from Adam . . . man's doing.
Why floods kill people? . . . man interferes with nature . . . man's doing
Why Earthquakes kill people? . . . men don't build properly . . . man's doing
Why Volcanoes kill people? . . . men live too close to them . . . man's doing.
Why Tsunamis kill people? . . . men don't pay attention . . . man's doing.
Why Medicine saves people? . . . men are made in God's image . . . God's doing.
Why men risk their lives for others? . . . made in God's image . . . God's doing.
Why men help strangers? . . . made in God's image . . . God's doing.
Why humans are so amazing? . . . designed by God . . . God's doing.
Why we find abundance and joy? . . . from God's bounty . . . God's doing.
It all makes perfect sense.
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AGuest
I will ask you for scriptural evidence of the spiritual thing you were talking about.
Absolutely no problem, dear one (again, peace to you!). I am more than happy to oblige; however, in my usual "lengthy" manner, I'm afraid. But if you're up for it, try these:
"Unless anyone is born from water and spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. What has been born from the flesh is flesh, and what has been born from the spirit is spirit. .. The wind blows where it wants to, and you hear the sound of it, but you do not know where it comes from and where it is going. So is everyone that has been born from the spirit.” John 3:5, 6, 8
"... there occurred from heaven a noise just like that of a rushing stiff breeze, and it filled the whole house in which they were sitting. And tongues as if of fire became visible to them and were distributed about, and one sat upon each one of them, and they all became filled with holy spirit." Acts 2:2-4
"And JaHVeH God proceeded to form the man out of dust from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man came to be a living soul. Further, JaHVeH God planted a garden in E´den, toward the east, and there he put the man whom he had formed." Genesis 2:7, 8
"And JaHVeH God proceeded to make long garments of skin for Adam and for his wife and to clothe them. And JaHVeH God went on to say: “Here the man has become like one of us in knowing good and bad, and now in order that he may not put his hand out and actually take [fruit] also from the tree of life and eat and live to time indefinite,—” With that JaHVeH God put himout of the garden of E´den to cultivate the ground from which he had been taken. And so he drove the man out and posted at the east of the garden of E´den the cherubs and the flaming blade of a sword that was turning itself continually to guard the way to the tree of life." Genesis 3:21-24
"These are the things he says who is holy, who is true, who has the key of David, who opens so that no one will shut, and shuts so that no one opens, ‘I know your deeds—look! I have set before you an opened door, which no one can shut—" Revelation 3:7, 8
"I am the door; whoever enters through me will be saved, and he will go in and out and find pasturage." John 10:9
"... look! there was a ladder stationed upon the earth and its top reaching up to the heavens; and, look! there were God’s angels ascending and descending on it." Genesis 28:12, 13
"Now it came to be the day when the angels of the [true] God entered to take their station before JaHVeH, and even Satan proceeded to enter right among them. Then JaHVeH said to Satan: “Where do you come from?” At that Satan answered JaHVeH and said: “From roving about in the earth and from walking about in it.” Job 1:6, 7
"This he caused to abound toward us in all wisdom and good sense, in that he made known to us the sacred secret of his will. It is according to his good pleasure which he purposed in himself for an administration at the full limit of the appointed times, namely, to gather all things together again in the Christ, the things in the heavens and the things on the earth." Ephesians 1:8-10
"I saw also the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them. ... he carried me away in [the power of the] spirit to a great and lofty mountain, and he showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God ... And I did not see a temple in it, for JaHVeH God the Almighty is its temple, also the Lamb [is]. And the city has no need of the sun nor of the moon to shine upon it, for the glory of God lighted it up, and its lamp was the Lamb. And the nations will walk by means of its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it. And its gates will not be closed at all by day, for night will not exist there. And they will bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it. But anything not sacred and anyone that carries on a disgusting thing and a lie will in no way enter into it;only those written in the Lamb’s scroll of life[will]." Revelation 22:2, 3, 10, 22-27
To explain: through Eden, God brought together the things in the spirit realm (where the seed of the Woman originated) and the physical realm (where that seed was slated to be hidden.. from its enemies in the spirit realm). When it became clear that such enemies (including the greatest one, Death) now had access to that seed (through Adham, who revealed that seed when he "sold" it in exchange for a deal to know bad (death) and yet live (like God)... that seed had to be further hidden. So, Adham was cast OUT of the spirit realm (garden) back to the physical realm (from which HE originated)... after being given a "vessel" that "belonged" to the physical realm (and thus, "enslaved" the SPIRIT that he was). He first body was NOT as the one we have - THAT one was in GOD's "image"... having GOD'S blood, holy spirit, in it... so that it could go "in" (from the physical realm where he originated into the spirit realm, the garden)... AND out (from the garden back into the physical realm... before it was cursed. Once he sinned... he was given a body that enslaved him as well as cast out from the spirit realm back to the physical realm, permanently.
Christ was resurrected to this same kind of body... which is why he could appear before his disciples, yet not be recognized... could enter through closed doors, and could ascend back to the spirit realm.
Angels have this same kind of body, as well. Thus, Belial (the one called "Satan" and "Devil") could rove in the earth and yet return to take his station... certain angels could forsake their "proper" dwelling place (the spirit realm and spirit body) so as to put on flesh in order to procreate with human women. In order to keep these from RETURNING, they were confined by the flood (water confines spirits - fire destroys them). Certain ones appeared as "able-bodied" men (i.e., men of flesh, versus beings of SPIRIT), which they did by putting ON flesh, which flesh they put OFF... in order to re-enter into the spirit realm (flesh, with its blood, cannot enter).
Through the "white robe"... the clean "outer garment"... which does not have sin and death in it, one can enter into the spirit realm. That's because this body is incorruptible - it does not have sin and death it in and is not enslaved by the physical realm. Because it is alive... by means of GOD'S blood (and breath/semen)... His holy spirit... which IS life... and gives LIFE. Although it must eat and drink, its "food" is spiritual (another topic altogether) and so does not pass through (as does physical food) but remains and further strengthens and reinforces that body. Thus, unlike the physical body, it does not expel waste (pee/poop). It also does not sleep, age, get sick... or die. It must be destroyed. Matthew 11:25
The "soiled outer garment"... is the body of flesh... with ITS blood. Which gives DEATH (sickness, disease, aging, and death ALL have their origin in our BLOOD... or marrow (which manufacturers blood)... or, because of the marrow... bone). That's why it is our BLOOD that doctors LOOK TO... to see what's going on with our health. True, there might be a tumor or other issue, but somewhere, somehow, the blood is involved... and is the first "notifier" of mortality.
As Adham said to Eve: "At last... bone of my bone, flesh of my flesh." So, too, those who belong to Christ will, as HIS Bride, be bone of HIS bone... and flesh of HIS flesh (Ephesians 5:30 KJV, YLT, Grieber)... which bone and flesh can go in... and out... between the spirit and physical realms. As it has done... and will yet do.
To allow ones to "go in"... but not come "out"... would be more captivity, more slavery. The kingdom, however, grants FREEDOM to the sons of God. Which is why Christ said, that when you know HIM... HE will set you free... so that you are TRULY free. (Romans 8:32, 36). One can be free in one's mind... but not in one's body. Such one is not TRULY free. One can be free in body... but not in mind. Again, not TRULY free. It is only when one is free in mind AND body... that one is TRULY free.
That, then, is the crux of the RELEASING that those who are in union with Christ, from Abel onward... were and are awaiting: the putting off of the flesh (with its blood)... and putting on of the "white robe" (the spirit body, with holy spirit as its blood)... which body... "robe"... one receives from Christ... either through taking part in the first resurrection or between "changed" to such body "in an instant" at the time such other ones are so resurrected. The first, although they die, are brought back to life. The second... never die; they are simply changed from a body that dies to one that does not.
THAT... was the hope of Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, et al., and is the "hope" of all true "christians" - to be LIKE God... knowing good (life) AND bad (death)... and yet living. That is the GIFT that God holds out to such ones, through Christ. The One who WAS dead... but now is living. Because of the body (white robe) and blood (holy spirit)... he possesses. Adham tried to take that "gift" for himself... to our great detriment.
I hope this helps, dear N.drew... and, again, wish you peace!
YOUR servant, sister, and a slave of Christ,
SA
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N.drew
Thank you! This, "It is only when one is free in mind AND body that one is TRULY free" is very nicely said!
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gubberningbody
N. Drew... "If the light that is in you is darkness, how great that darkness is"
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N.drew
Thank you. I sometimes think I'm pretty great too. Thanks for noticing, my dear gubberningbody!
Funny what a comma will do, and a pronoun, and a a. Give up yet? Oh ya!
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N.drew
Is she being SARcastic??
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myelaine
dear AGuest...
you said:"“I am the bread of life. Y OUR forefathers ate the manna in the wilderness and yet died. This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that anyone may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread that came down from heaven; if anyone eats of this bread he will live forever; and, for a fact, the bread that I shall give is my flesh in behalf of the life of the world.”
Given that he is also recorded to have said, "Go, make disciples... teaching THEM to observe all of the things I commanded YOU..." I have absolutely NO problem inviting ANYONE to partake of the manna. Because this IS the "good news" of the kingdom: that ANYONE may eat of it.
In YOUR wickedness... and utter evilness... however, YOU wish to place further burdens on people. YOU wish to bind them... AGAIN... back under the Law, which Law MY Lord fulfilled... so that it was impaled WITH him... opening the Way to those who wish to be covenanted to God pursuant to a NEW Law.
Oh, Lordy, girl... I did nothing of the sort! I encouraged them to EXERCISE their FAITH... by SHOWING their commitment... BY eating and drinking. "
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the psalmist said God's law is truth...an eye for an eye...Jesus came to fulfil the law of truth(as substitutionary sacrifice)...because God is love.
disciples of Jesus Christ are to partake...THEY are the "anyone"...otherwise if you don't confess with your mouth and believe in your heart that He IS the atonement for your sins then you are partaking unworthily (Therefore whoever eats this bread or drinks this cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body. For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep[are dead]. For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged. 1 cor 11:27-31)...
you told people to go to the halls and partake and when I questioned that, you said to partake only if the spirit leads you and I questioned that too...in that if this "reminder" as you called it was from the Spirit then it wouldn't go against that Spirit within us...however, since we are taught to seperate ourselves from/have no fellowship with heresy and "ecclesiastical" apostasy it WOULD go against that Spirit within us to partake of this MOST initmate fellowship. (1 john 4:1, rom 16:17, eph 5:11, 2 thess 3:6, 14, 2 john 10-11, 2 cor 6:17, titus 3:10)
regarding REAL committment:
dear Tammy...
your post #6391 on page 9:
"To put that understanding into some practical terms... do you or have you ever loved a child, spouse, brother, sister, cousin, friend... who started 'going bad', and hurting others and also themselves? Perhaps due to drugs, or abuse, or anger, or whatever reason? Have you just given up on them... or do you fight to bring that person back around, because you think they ARE capable of coming back around. Of being kind and loving and good again.
If you have hope for those people that you love, do you deny God the same hope for those he loves?"...shouldn't we continue then?
The work of the Holy Spirit is to convict the WORLD of sin, of righteousness and of judgement...AND...to regenerate the sinner, seal, indwell, empower, comfort and sanctify those who BELIEVE in Jesus Christ as their Saviour.
A persons belief in and preaching of john 8:24 IS a work of the Holy Spirit, to NOT preach it is to quench the Holy Spirit's work IN the world (1 thess 5:19)
Matthew 22:37-40
I love my Lord and Saviour. His SUBSTITUTIONAL sacrifice is the sole means of redemption from the guilt, penalty and power of sin(death)
- then, now and forever-
I love my neighbour and so I will speak truth to him - he will die in his sins (like I would have!) if he doesn't believe that Jesus Christ is the ONLY means of redemption to God and into His kingdom. ONLY Jesus suffered and died for me and my neighbour and Jesus wants THAT proclaimed because He loves us AND it is God's will that no man perish. (could you be honouring Him with your lips but your heart is far from Him...and your neighbour?)
In proclaiming the truth of john 8:24 to my neighbour I proclaim reverence for the flesh and blood of Jesus Christ...not only is His sacrifice my atonement but also the new covenant is signified or signed IN His flesh and blood..."And He took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me.” Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you. luke 22:19-20
Tammy, if your neighbour is held captive to sin and death why would you only give him love and mercy if you can give him the key to his freedom? romans 8:2, john 8:36
btw...everytime you respond instantly with YOUR knee-jerk reactions to my comments and scripture citations you are acting opposite and contrary to one who would wait on the Holy Spirit to lead them into all truth...titus 1:10-16, psalm 120:7
love michelle
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AGuest
the psalmist said God's law is truth...an eye for an eye...Jesus came to fulfil the law of truth (as substitutionary sacrifice)...because God is love.
He did, Michelle. HE did. What, though, did he SAY about that particular "law" for US? Obviously, you missed that verse. Here, let me refresh your memory:
“Y OU heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.’However, I say to YOU: Do not resist him that is wicked; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other also to him." Matthew 5:38, 39
Apparently, while THEY "heard" [that it was said]... apparently they heard... wrong.
disciples of Jesus Christ are to partake...THEY are the "anyone"...
Nope. Anyone... is the "anyone." Obviously, you forgot that, too, although you quote Matthew 28:19. Because there, my Lord is recorded to have said:
"Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations... teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded YOU."
One of those "things"... was to eat his flesh and drink his blood.
otherwise if you don't confess with your mouth and believe in your heart that He IS the atonement for your sins then you are partaking unworthily
Yet, you assume that all those who I openly invited to partake DON'T so confess. Why IS that? How do YOU know what is in their hearts? I don't. All I know is that they were told that they SHOULDN'T partake (regardless of what they confess as to Christ)... because they aren't "anointed." Yet, they were told that they could (1) be resurrected, and (2) live forever. How, may I ask, can that even occur... if they aren't even faithful in what is LEAST ("Unless you eat the flesh of the son of man and drink his blood, you have NO LIFE in yourselves")?
But let's look at "Paul", since you believe you understand the words attributed to him:
(Therefore whoever eats this bread or drinks this cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body. For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep[are dead]. For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged. 1 cor 11:27-31)...
Let me ask you: WHO was "Paul" addressing his words to? Was not everyone present (1) a recipient of holy spirit (otherwise, why would Paul even have them there), and so (2) ones professing not only a union with Christ but faith in his atonement? Yet, "Paul" insininuated that even some of THESE would be eating and drinking "unworthily."
So, WHAT were these to "judge" as to themselves? That they were "anointed", as the WTBTS falsely teaches? Nope. Everyone present was a member of the Body. Whether they professed a union with Christ? Nope. Everyone present professed such a union. Whether they believed Christ's blood atoned for them? Nope. Everyone present believed that.
What these were MISSING... is that the bread was not "just" bread... or the wine "just" wine... so that some ate at home prior to and were too "full" to do so then... or some did NOT eat at home and so attempted to gourge themselves. But even more than that... some were refusing to sit/eat with others. Folks were sitting with their friends/loved ones... and pretty much "shunning" others... right at the very meal. So what "Paul" was telling these to JUDGE themselves "as to"... was THEIR discernment of the bread and wine (whether it TRULY represented TO THEM Christ's flesh and blood)... AND what was IN them regarding other members of the Body. Because Christ had said to STOP judging. Some of these, however, rather than checking their OWN deficiencies (of the spirit) out... were harboring judgment against others in attendance.
EVEN so... your constant "concern" with "law" is, again, quite telling: you are no different than those who kept the tenth of mint but forgot MERCY... and who strained out the gnat but gulped down the camel. My telling folks who WANT to be in a relationship with Christ... people who, some for all their entire LIVES, were told they COULDN'T be in union with Christ (because, it is only those who DO eat his flesh and drink his blood who are in union with him)... was an act of LOVE. It was a way of OPENING the "Way", not putting a closed door before such ones.
you told people to go to the halls and partake
I absolutely did... and will do so again! Because... even NOW... the Spirit and the Bride KEEP saying... "Come!"
and when I questioned that, you said to partake only if the spirit leads you
And you find fault with that, because?
and I questioned that too... in that if this "reminder" as you called it was from the Spirit then it wouldn't go against that Spirit within us...
I have no idea what you're talking about, here, and I don't believe you do, either. We OFTEN go against the Spirit within us. Some even GRIEVE that Spirit. If that were not so... then Adham wouldn't have sinned. Because he COULDN'T have sinned. God's VERY spirit was in Adham - indeed, He BLEW His spirit INTO Adham. Yet... Adham, who had such Spirit in him... went directly against that Spirit. Get away, Michelle - you have absolutely NO idea what you're talking about.
however, since we are taught to seperate ourselves from/have no fellowship with heresy and "ecclesiastical" apostasy it WOULD go against that Spirit within us to partake of this MOST initmate fellowship. (1 john 4:1, rom 16:17, eph 5:11, 2 thess 3:6, 14, 2 john 10-11, 2 cor 6:17, titus 3:10)
Again, you're quoting "Paul." And, again, I am not a disciple of Paul... or anyone other than Christ. BUT, since you bring the subject up... why is it that you have not been able to so separate YOURSELF? For instance, let's look at what John stated:
"... do not believe every inspired expression, but test the inspired expressions to see whether they originate with God, because many false prophets have gone forth into the world." 1 John 4:1
First, it is you, not I... who believes "every inspired expression", including expressions that were NOT inspired. And it is you who "test" whatever it is that you believe... against the Bible. Even though Jeremiah prophesied as to the false stylus of the scribes... and even though Christ condemned the work OF the scribes. Contrastly, I reject those expressions that were NOT inspired as being UNinspired, even if having some wisdom/truth... because the writers were not IN SPIRIT when they wrote... OR told by God TO so write. And those what I understand WERE inspired I "test"... NOT pursuant to the Bible, but pursuant to the HOLY SPIRIT, via the anointing WITH holy spirit that I received... as John WROTE we are to do. YOU look to men and books to teach you; I look to Christ, the Holy Spirit... and the anointing I received from him. Which anointing YOU have never professed.
I also do not look to the Bible to corroborate what my Lord tells me; I look to my Lord... to corroborate whether what is written IS true... or is false. You look to the golden calf... thus, making IT your god; I look TO God... by looking... and listening... to the One He sent and SAID to look to... and listen to.
You also quote 2 John 10, 11:
"If anyone comes to YOU and does not bring this teaching, never receive him into YOUR homes or say a greeting to him. 11 For he that says a greeting to him is a sharer in his wicked works."
What "teaching", though, was John writing about? Well, you'd have to look at the verses preceding, wouldn't you? Why don't we do that, now?
"... I request you, lady, as [a person] writing you, not a new commandment, but one which we had from [the] beginning, that we love one another. And this is what love means, that we go on walking according to his commandments. This is the commandment, just as YOU people have heard from [the] beginning, that YOU should go on walking in it. For many deceivers have gone forth into the world, persons not confessing [Jesus] Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist. Look out for yourselves, that YOU do not lose the things we have worked to produce, but that YOU may obtain a full reward. Everyone that pushes ahead and does not remain in the teaching of the Christ does not have God.He that does remain in this teaching is the one that has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to YOU and does not bring this teaching, never receive him into YOUR homes or say a greeting to him. For he that says a greeting to him is a sharer in his wicked works." 2 John 5-11
First, that "commandment"... was that we LOVE one another. Shutting up the kingdom of the heavens is NOT a manifestation of love, Michelle. To the contrary, it is a manifestation of evil. LOVE... is borne out by OPENING the Way... to ANY who may wish to partake OF it. Second, NONE of those that I encouraged to go and partake deny Christ as coming in the flesh. If, however, you're trying to say that the invitation was also to those who DO deny Christ as coming in the flesh to just go and eat and drink "just because"... well, you're much, MUCH more simple-minded than I ever imagined... and you need to go back and READ the invitation, rather than wickedly attempting... as you have the habit of doing... of trying to find/make fault where absolutely none exists.
Because just as with the Spirit and the Bride... my invitation(s) have always been to those [who might be] WISHING... and THIRSTING... which many ARE... to come and take life's water... free! If one is NOT so wishing or thirsting... then THEY knew it wasn' to them... as YOU should [have] know[n]. The fact that perhaps you DIDN'T... and apparently still DON'T... makes me... well, actually quite embarassed for YOU... and your lack of even elementary comprehension. Which lack is a direct result of your own wickedness and hypocrisy... which renders YOU blind. As to this matter... and many, many other related things.
A slave of Christ,
SA