Does the Issue of Universal Sovereignty make sense to you as an explanation for evil?

gubberningbody

It used to for me, and now it doesn't.

I'm not sure how I was able to accept that argument now that I don't, but perhaps it was connected with my increasing compassion for people and their personal suffering as I've grown older.

Now it seems like a sick excuse. More like a bar-bet with Satan and all of creation suffers.

I read Paul's words and he has no rejoiner except to say in effect "sucks to be a vessel of wrath...glad I'm not one, but who are you to complain anyway, huh? Who's bigger, smarter and more powerful than you, you, you complaining vessel of wrath, you. Shut up!"

I wrack my brain and read apologetic after apologetic and I can't even invent an excuse for this world.

Why, if you were able to create any world of your own choosing, would you create a universe predicated on an eternal cycle of death? Life feeding on life? Never mind the creative nonsense of "we all ate vegetation" stuff in the beginning. Even plants feed off of bacteria which are visciously killing and eating each other. (yes I know not all bacteria are of this sort)

I know I wouldn't create a universe like this one. I'm not even certain there's a good argument for creating a universe at all.

It's said that "God loved the world" and that's all well and good, but if the world doesn't feel it, it's useless.

A God that was so lonely that he couldn't tolerate another moment of aloneness that he had to drag other creatures into existence for his own amusement is not what I'd call a morally superior being.

What is the point of his even existing? Does he simply lack the ability to cease to be? Is he/she/it bound to exist without any choice whatsoever?

Even if a creator with a lower-case 'c' did exist a-la the biblical general description, this being is in the same boat we're in insofar as it can never, ever know that it isn't itself a creation subject to the whims of a creator behind and beyond his own mind.

The argument "there are no other's besides me" is really nothing more than a Deniro-esque taxi-cab driver "You talking to me?...You talking to me?...Well I'm the only one here..."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EgcVLOe9qFM

Mary

No....it's a bunch of crap. No one with any moral sense would allow something like a "universal sovereighty" as an excuse for all the horrors in human history. Would you let your kid go with a known pedophile or serial killer after to you tell them "no", just to prove a point? Of course not. So this ridiculous excuse as to why god hasn't done anything up till now is no different.

AGuest

There is no "issue" of universal sovereignty, dear gubber (peace to you!). IF universal sovereignty was an issue... and one starting with the events in Eden (let alone, any other time)... then:

1. Adham and Eve wouldn't have hidden after realizing their "nakedness." I mean, WHY hide? Why not step up and say, "Hey, yeah, we ATE. So WHAT!" Not what they did, though. Nope... they still had to ANSWER (TO the Universal Sovereign) for what they did. Yes?

2. Belial (aka "Satan" and "Devil")... would not have went in, took his station before... and reported to the Most Holy One of Israel. Nor would he have needed "permission" to "touch" Job. That he DID so report... and DID need permission... shows that HE knew who the "universal sovereign" was.

That was some melarkey made up by the WTBTS because they didn't understand The Issue (and so, they have actually waffeled back and forth on this matter, "universal sovereignty"). Unfortunately, they STILL don't know or understand The Issue... which is... whether man will only love and listen to God because/when He physically and materially cares for and "prospers" him... or will man, instead, turn around and curse God to His very face... when his (man's) "skin" (the body of flesh and its "wants/needs/desires") is threatened with heartache, inconvenience, pain, suffering, even death?

The issue... is the ACCUSATION made by "Satan"... and has to do with what WE will do, individually, when it "feels" like God has turned away from/against us (although He has not, but only allows US to answer the accusation FOR OURSELVES... rather than doing so FOR us).

The Father of my Lord, JAH of Armies... is the sovereign. Of this universe and all others. "Satan" has been GIVEN some authority... as the "ruler" of "the world." However, ALL authority was given to God's Son, the Holy One of Israel, JAHESHUA, His Chosen One. All authority... including authority over "Satan"... including authority... over Death - Satan's "king".

Yet, that authority does not, never has, and never will encompass the JAH Himself. He, the MOST Holy One... of Israel.

I hope this helps and, again, peace to you!

A slave of Christ,

SA

gubberningbody

Aguest. Do you realize that you didn't deal with the core question at all? You only reasserted the question as the answer.

"The issue... is the ACCUSATION made by "Satan"... and has to do with what WE will do, individually, when it "feels" like God has turned away from/against us (although He has not, but only allows US to answer the accusation FOR OURSELVES... rather than doing so FOR us)."

There are a host of problems with this.

1. You don't know if there is A god, or a multiplicity of gods, some principle of universal mind, or just your mind organizing your experience in such a way so that you can make sense of what may or may not be nonsense.

2. Even if there WAS A god, you only assert on the basis of some seriously questionable writings that there is no "turning away"

3. Your answer begs the question as to WHY it would even be necessary to "see how we react when we're seriously abused". We'd jail a parent who behaved in the manner that you easily accept.

BTW my response here is for me alone because I know you can't understand any of what I've just written.

wolfman85

To me, Universal Sovereignty, as taught by the WT, would makes sense only if God had never executed anyone for Divine Judgement, as in Sodom and Gomorrah, the Flood, the rebellious Israelites in the wilderness, ect.

From these facts have already spent thousands of years and God did not allow these people for millennia to realize His Sovereignty. Simply executed them. So why humanity has had to endure so many millennia of evil without God's intervention put the excuse of sovereignty, when there are examples of divine intervention to eliminate evil in the past? Sorry for my English.

N.drew

To seek to know God's Sovereignty is a facet of free will. God does not make people look at evidence to believe. Jehovah provides all the evidence we need to believe, then for love, we believe. Jehovah never "simply executed" anyone.

gubberningbody

wolfman - good points...even if one accepts the premise of the U.S. argument, the S. has already intervened and interfered with the test countless times.

Who changed the languages? Oh right! So we'd be divided and have more problems. Sweet! Thanks for "not interfering".

Mary - spot on. Odd that your icon looks like my real sister named Mary.

N. drew - Jehovah never seemed to have any problems abusing people in the past. No wonder the balance of Christendom skips the OT.

watson

God's justice is a bitch.

ShadesofGrey

Sort of, I guess... but not really... I mean, why do little babies suffer, especially if no one was watching? What does that prove? Anyway... I think that when the usual Christian explanations make no sense, the Orthodox church usually has something good to say, so I am putting these links on here for those who are like-minded.

http://www.frederica.com/writings/how-can-god-permit-suffering.html

http://www.patheos.com/Library/Eastern-Orthodoxy/Beliefs/Suffering-and-the-Problem-of-Evil.html

My love to you and yours, Sister SOG

N.drew

Why do people say that the people's bad choices that result in injustice are God's bad choices? If the complainers took the position that God has, would you all take away free will? You would prevent all abuse, if you were god? If someone were to be born that caused so much suffering that he should not have been born, would you prevent the mom and dad that made him from having the sex that made him? Would you prevent the marriage in the first place if she was only 15? What would you do to prevent the bitchy injustice?

Does the Issue of Universal Sovereignty make sense to you as an explanation for evil?

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