There is No Morality Without God

by whereami 161 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  unshackled

  Yes PSac the idea of "well being" is based on Sam Harris' book The Moral Landscape.

  
  
  Found this quote from Harris:

  Morality must relate, at some level, to the well-being of conscious creatures. If there are more and less effective ways for us to seek happiness and to avoid misery in this world—and there clearly are—then there are right and wrong answers to questions of morality.
  
  Human well-being is not a random phenomenon. It depends on many factors—ranging from genetics and neurobiology to sociology and economics. But, clearly, there are scientific truths to be known about how we can flourish in this world. Wherever we can have an impact on the well-being of others, questions of morality apply.
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  cofty

  Essentially morality is a bottom-up process not a top-down one.

  The very idea of morality is an unecessary complication. If what we are really talking about is how to increase the well being of conscious creatures why not just talk and think in those terms?
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  JonathanH

  @Cofty

  Because morality is relic from a bygone era of tribal thinking. It's a way of seperating the actions of one group from the actions of another group, as well as defining who belongs to which group. Look around at what people use morality for. It's not so much to ensure the well being of people, so much as it is used to define who belongs to which group, or more importantly "is this person in my group?" Views on war, homosexuality, poverty, ect are convenient ways to see if this person is part of your group or not. Like you said, "morality" is a bottom up thing, and as newchapter pointed out, it often had more to do with finding obtuse methods and reasons for dealing with undesired outcomes when real knowledge was absent, than with innate goalposts for human well being. But once it becomes imprinted on a culture, it's a convenient way to identify "us" from "them". In theory, your definition of morality is what most people mean, but in practice morality is cult of tradition being ever formed by the cultural influences around it. It's a complex thing, certainly not so simple as "we all just understand it."
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  cofty

  Fair comment JonathanH. This is why I believe Sam Harris is correct when he says there are facts that can be discovered about morality. The modern trend to view all cultures are equally valid is nonsense. Some cultures are wrong about how to maximise well being just as they are wrong when they imagine that the local with doctor is the best way to cure epilepsy.

  It is a very long time since religion/faith said anything useful or even interesting about morality.
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  NewChapter

  That's interesting Jonathan. It makes me think of the Hebrew mandate that men wear a border of blue thread around their hems. That makes no sense if well-being were the only motivator. But it makes a lot of sense if it is an outward sign to identify oneself and to separate from other groups. I mean think of the shocking immoratly of wearing cotton blends! It makes no sense. They were trying to come into their own and set themselves apart from all the people that basically had previously subjugated their insignificant little numbers.

  NC
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  cofty

  It makes me think of the Hebrew mandate that men wear a border of blue thread around their hems. That makes no sense if well-being were the only motivator.

  But well being is the motivator. If in their worldview having a blue hem is pleasing to Yahweh and if obedience will bring his belssings in terms of wealth health and security and disobedience will bring his judgement in this life or the next then having a blue hem is absolutely about human well being.
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  unshackled

  Problem I see with religious morality is that focus on well-being is highjacked by agenda. For instance, the Catholic Church is more interested in stopping use of contraception rather than genocide. Or more focused on gay marriage than nuclear proliferation. Whatever your religious beliefs are, they will shape what you see as moral...or good and evil. Anti-gay agendas is the perfect example.

  cofty makes a great point....
  "If what we are really talking about is how to increase the well being of conscious creatures why not just talk and think in those terms?"
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  cofty

  You are right unshackled. Without god we do have an objective focus for making moral decisions. When you introduce gods his/her capricious desires and aversions trump all of our good instincts.

  Suddenly genocide, kidnapping, forced marriage, slavery etc has to be declared good. Homosexuality, contraception, haircuts, naked flesh has to be declared evil.

  All religious thinking is an obstacle to moral progress. Religion said its last useful or even interesting thing about morality a long time ago.
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  JonathanH

  That's a fantastic example NewChapter! What the hell did things like that have to do with prosperity of mankind? Now if you asked a religious moral philosopher whether it would've been immoral for them NOT to wear blue, they would probably say "no, that wouldn't be immoral" because that act wasn't immoral, but they would probably chime in "But disobeying god's mandate was immoral", and that introduces a third and very important element to morality. Control. Obedience to those of the higher caste was almost always a moral mandate in countless religious cultures. The preist said it, you have to do it, it's wrong not to. The JWs operate with this mentality to an extreme. Their greatest moral imperitive is to obey the society.

  I think those are the three aspects of "morality", control, identification, and the well being of concious things. But only the last one is of any importance in a post enlightenment society. We don't need blind obedience to authority figures, and identification is more harmful than anything (seeing as how that is what creates prejudice and bigotry). The last one however doesn't come from some innate understanding. It's complex, multifaceted, and there are no easy answers. Attempting to pigeon hole it with something as simple as "the golden rule" doesn't work, because cultures want different things out of life. We don't just "get it" in our "heart of hearts" or something lame like that, but with diligent study, meditation, and contemplation we've managed to work towards it for thousands of years. It's not because we have progressively stopped ignoring the unicorn in our heart telling us right from wrong, it's because great men and women dedicate their lives to civil rights movements, ethical philosophy, conciousness raising and other means of working towards the benefit of everyone rather than the benefit of their singular group. That's what we need more of, we don't need more people consulting bronze age barbarians and mystics and demanding we follow their tribal council.
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  cofty

  As a corollary to that I would say without hesitation that we are making moral progress as a society. It is one of the most harmful lies told by the borg and still preached by evangelicals that the world is going to hell in a handbasket. Its not.