An Old Argument.... does it hold water? (page 10)

sizemik

We are told we are "made in God's image" . . . his "word" even tells us "it does not belong to man who is walking even to direct his step."

Evidently . . . he is content for this to be the case.

Arguments over who's to blame for human misery is a strawman IMO . . . natural disasters are just that.

The bottom line is that this is his (God's) show . . . he's calling the shots . . . what does or doesn't happen does so because he either causes or allows it.

Blaming humans exclusively for human misery ignores the "grand designer" responsibility.

It's like me blaming the saw because I can't cut straight . . . but continuing to use it anyway instead of fixing it.

Shifting the blame to the Devil is just shifting the question . . . why the Devil? . . . is God not capable of dealing with it? I'm starting to understand why the Devil is so necessary . . . it's purely so God can maintain his innocence.

I'm inclined to stick with JP . . . at least he gets things done.

jay88

@Sizemik

This is a perfect set-up for a Christian,.......

I would like to see where this goes.

edit:

Sizemik: Arguments over who's to blame for human misery is a strawman IMO . . . natural disasters are just that.

..............

What is a natural disaster to an omnipotent God?

talesin

Re: The Devil

It puzzled me as a child, and as an adult it strikes me as the ultimate hypocracy, that God sat around with Satan and made a wager about poor old faithful Job. Then they tortured him and his family, just to see who would win the wager. *shakes head in disgust*

If Satan is responsible for the woes on earth,,, who gave Satan the power? Yup,,, GOD. Is it so insecure that it needs us to be tested and prove our devotion? Or just that controlling?

That's not love, not in any way, shape or form.

t

sizemik

What is a natural disaster to an omnipotent God?

Precisely . . . if he is powerful enough to stop it . . . and declines to do so . . . then it has to be intentional from his perspective that it happens.

If humans slaughter one another and pollute the environment etc etc . . . then it also has to be intentional from his perspective that it happens.

And we wonder why some are suspicious of his intentions?

tec

It hurts me to see you defend this stuff.

Please don't hurt for me. Whatever peace I have in life, whatever strength, comes from following Christ and leaning upon God. You cannot see more "God" in me than in 'god'. More in me than in the false version of God, perhaps. (though I sin, and hurt people, and cause people to suffer through inaction most often, but sometimes also through action)

I learn from Christ, and He from God. I love more because of Him. It doesn't come from me. It comes from them.

Peace to you,

tammy

(Shades, love and peace to you as well! I think Satan is a tempter, and an accuser, and certainly one to take advantage of weakness... but I think that the bottom line comes down to us; our choices of who we listen to, and who we follow. The devil doesn't have any power over our spirits that we don't give to him.)

tec

We are told we are "made in God's image" . . . his "word" even tells us "it does not belong to man who is walking even to direct his step."

Before man fell, yes. After man fell, that same bible says that Adam had a son in "his own likeness, in his own image".

How could man fall if made in God's image? Because man had been given the ability to choose his own path. If he chooses a path that goes against God, then how can He then blame God for the problems that come from that?

Who is JP?

Peace,

Tammy

sizemik

The "fall of man" . . . I suspect that's a thread in itself.

Only one man chose. The rest do not have that exact same freedom to choose . . . their situation has already been severely comprimised. Without the same parameters . . . we are all reduced to impotent observers for 70 or 80 short years with little or no reliable information. We're reduced to guessing, while the carnage continues at God's discretion.

JP = Joe Pesci (he get's things done) - George Carlin

tec

The rest do not have that exact same freedom to choose . . .

Sure we do. Might be harder in some ways, but we should have the advantage of past mistakes to learn from. I mean, we've got no shortage there ;)

their situation has already been severely comprimised.

By our choices, and the choices made before us, and before them, and so on. We do however have Christ. He's pretty easy to listen to... his teachings at least, on how to treat one another. We don't listen though... and that is on us, not Him, and not God.

Without the same parameters . . . we are all reduced to impotent observers for 70 or 80 short years with little or no reliable information.

We've got lots of information. And much of it should be common sense. Care for others. Do unto others as we would have them do unto us. Love even your enemies. Don't kill, don't lie, don't cheat, don't hurt... forgive (because we want to be forgiven when we mess up). We are far more than observors, unless that is all we choose to be. We are active participants in whatever course we choose to follow.

We're reduced to guessing, while the carnage continues at God's discretion.

We can guess about God, yes... whether or not He is real. But that isn't a valid reason for us to cause suffering, by hurting this world and those in it. And we can't blame God if we refuse to listen to what He taught us, or to the One He sent to us (because that IS the God that people are blaming here). Least, not in any way that makes sense to me.

Peace,

Tammy

Judge Dread

THERE IS NO GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

HE DOES NOT EXIST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

IT'S THE TOOTH FAIRY'S FAULT..................NO,NO,NO.............IT'S THE FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTERS FAULT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

HE COULD DROP PASTA ON ALL THE HUNGRY PEOPLE IF HE WAS A LOVING MONSTER, INSTEAD OF FLYING AROUND ALL DAY AND NIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!!!

JDW

sizemik

Love even your enemies. Don't kill, don't lie, don't cheat, don't hurt... forgive (because we want to be forgiven when we mess up)

I have no argument with a morality such as this between humans. But I just don't see the same standards being applied by the God of the Bible to himself (as you quoted above).

Just convince me that there's justification for God having us live on an Earth that produces Earthquakes . . . entirely random occurrances that kill indiscriminately. If he is omnipotent . . . what possible motive could he have for engineering circumstances that produce such an event? And then he sits back and does absolutely nothing while "morally adjusted" humans claw at the rubble with their bare hands to save a stranger?

An Old Argument.... does it hold water?

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