An Old Argument.... does it hold water?

by AK - Jeff 1495 Replies latest jw experiences

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  tec

  What challenge?

  Who says His father cannot... as in, is "physically" unable? Perhaps he cannot because the people do not want his interference, they do not want Him... and so he stays out of their lives altogether? Perhaps a sign such as that would make thing worse for a people who do not want to know Him, or be forced into knowing there is a God? Perhaps greater battles would come as people fight over the nature of God, rather than just the reality of Him? Perhaps Christ quelled the storm on faith? The same as he said we could, if we but had faith to do so. Perhaps there are a multitude of things I cannot even consider, as I keep saying. Perhaps, perhaps, perhaps... not black and white, absolute... too many variables and unknowns.

  Peace,

  tammy
• 

  cofty

  not black and white, absolute... too many variables and unknowns - Tec

  No its really, really simple.

  God knew before the earthquake that caused the Asian tsunami even happened. As the wave was just beginning, at that very moment an omnipotent god could so easily have taken the energy out of it before it even got going. Nobody would ever know so there would be no sign to force anybody to do or not do anything.

  Either god is impotent as in he physically can't do it, or he sat and watched as the wave rushed to drown hundreds of thousands of men, women and children.

  If you wish to defend a deist god then you may have a case. If you want to defend your sort of god who listens to prayer and talks to you and helps christians find a job or a parking space at the mall or cures their athletes foot then you have no defense.

  Your prevarication and special pleading on this issue is precisely why I concluded that my faith in god was based on a delsuion.
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  unshackled

  ^^ Cofty I love the smell of sheer logic in the morning.
• 

  tec

  God knew before the earthquake that caused the Asian tsunami even happened. As the wave was just beginning, at that very moment an omnipotent god could so easily have taken the energy out of it before it even got going. Nobody would ever know so there would be no sign to force anybody to do or not do anything.

  This is a possible answer to just one variable, Cofty. When the actual point is that there are so many variables in play (most of which we cannot even conceive of); that to make an absolutist stance is impossible.

  You cannot make an absolute statement against an all powerful/knowing being unless you are ALSO all knowing.

  Peace,

  tammy
• 

  Qcmbr

  tec - by the same token you cannot make any absolute statements for such a being but it doesn't stop you from asserting unprovables regularly (e.g.christ is love).
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  Qcmbr

  If we look at the evidence god is rather like santa who also dislikes poor kids especially in third world countries.
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  cofty

  Tec - On Christmas Eve 2004 the Asian tsunami left a quarter of a million bodies on the beaches of the countries that border the Indian Ocean.

  Let's try your answer out on a grieving young woman from Sri Lanka who lost her husband and children and many members of her extended family, was left homeless and now suffers from PTSD and depression.

  She asks you why god didn't just quietly quell the wave before anybody even knew about it.

  Your response - " there are so many variables in play (most of which we cannot even conceive of); that to make an absolutist stance is impossible."

  There I'm sure she feels much better now.
• 

  besty

  cofty
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  tec

  Are you sure that's not a red herring, Cofty?

  How does what someone is feeling address the fact that you cannot make an absolute statement about a allknowing/allpowerful being... unless you are ALSO allknowing.

  What about the person in the aftermath of loss and death... be that war or natural disaster... who turns to Christ and God for strength to see them through; trusting them and leaning upon them? Or any of those who suffer tragedy, and survive and continue on because of their faith? How do these people suffer loss and tragedy, and yet not blame God, but rather take comfort from Him?

  tec - by the same token you cannot make any absolute statements for such a being but it doesn't stop you from asserting unprovables regularly (e.g.christ is love).

  Perhaps not. You may be right.

  But I can look at the teachings and life of Christ... at what He did, and what He taught. I can SEE Him. And if I can see Him, then I can also see His Father.

  Peace,

  tammy
• 

  cofty

  Are you sure that's not a red herring, Cofty? - Tec

  Yes I'm certain.

  You are talking abstract ivory-tower theology, I am trying in vain to get you to think about the thread topic in terms of real people and real suffering.

  You are still evading the question with bland statements about god's inscrutability.

  How do these people suffer loss and tragedy, and yet not blame God, but rather take comfort from Him?

  Because they find comfort in the delusion that has been repeated ad nauseum, "All shall be well, and all shall be well, and all manner of things shall be well" - Julian of Norwich 14th Century.

  Its the same lying platitude that we find all over the Old Testament.