Englishman,
You may not get over it completely, but you can diminish its impact over time. However, if someone says it is hopeless, they can't change, well, they won't change.
Self Esteem
by larc 86 Replies latest jw friends
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waiting
Hi Englishman,
Good point. I'm in Psych 101 - and you can tell (and you can start rollin' your eyeballs back about now.......).
Kids are just like a blank sheet of paper, once the parent has drawn his maps upon it, the child will be imprinted for life.
There is a school of thought that says that our minds are like a blank slate at birth. And there are other schools of thought which say that our heritage (for wont of better word), evolution, our ancestors come into play also.
Some people are born shy, intelligent, having humor, artistic talent, etc. Guess it really is in the genes, eh?
Then our environment comes into play - shaping. But we start out *something*. Twins have been studied in this respect - still having much likenesses even though being raised in different families & backgrounds. What still makes them so remarkable similiar? The suggestions are - they were born that way, and keep it even through time, environment, lifestyle & life changes.
Some people may not be able to shake off poor parenting - others can, to a lesser/greater degree. It's an individualistic process. But better parenting, statistically, would seem to make more better kids, as you've eluded to.
It's a compilation of things upon a human - but we're unique. Look at Outlaw, kissing himself on the head.
One thing I am learning in Psychology - very few things are black & white - and the author & professor are very careful in not generalizing.
waiting
ps: Dear Larc - if Zazu finally throws you out on your sorry rump - come my way, I'll take you in. Of course, my husband may start rollin' his eyes back more often than he already does........
((((((((larc))))))))))
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Julie
Greetings to all,
Waiting, I read Larc's thread about therapy. I am not sure why you thought it might be something I'd want to comment on other than it is relevent to what I am trying to say here. I think I will contain my comments to this thread because it is pharases like:
:Why do you have low self esteem? Is it because your daddy told you that you where no damned good? Well, you are a grown up now, so why are you still buying his bull shit?
that display a depth of ignorance (not to mention callousness) that need to be highlighted. I see still, Larc that you miss my point when you reply:
:No one can be helped, if they don't want to change or be helped
See now if you would substitute "want" for "realize they need" then you would be 100% correct. What I have tried to explain to you in this thread is that there are many who are in desperate need of help who DO NOT KNOW or BELIEVE it. It is an inability to see. Do you not grasp this? It's not a matter of some screwed up person sitting around thinking "Wow, I'm pretty messed up, maybe I should get some help.....naaaaaahhhh, I like it this way" I mean come on!!!
Let me give you an analogy that might make my point more clear. To me it is like a roller coaster. That first hill is so steep, it takes a long time to get up that incline. Mental illness is like that initial hill, some have problems but are still strong enough to somehow make it all the way to the top, teeter briefly and then go flying down the road to recovery. Some cannot even make it some of the way. Some can make it there, very slow and arduous journey, and the site of the decline before them is so overwhelming they simply stick to what they know, those oh-so-comfortable (no matter how sick) paradigms, convincing themselves all the harder that they are "ok".
It is not a matter of wanting to get better Larc. Those who realize they have something to get better from have overcome one of the very hardest parts of the battle. They tend to seek the help they need and make the changes necessary to improve their psychological health. It is those who are utterly clueless to the depths of their illness that remain as they are, or get progressively worse, for life.
It is for the countless of those that your broadstroke, general, get-over-it-you-big-baby attitude that indicates to me you do not realize how wide-spread, dysfunctional-enough-to-screw-children-up-for-life situations really are out there.
Oh and regarding your therapy thread. I am all for therapy. I am also all for a serious minded person who wants to heal to put a lot of effort into finding the *right* therapist. Pretty much agreed with all I read in that thread. The quandry is how to get the worst off among us into the therapist's office.
Regards,
Julie -
fodeja
Now I have seen people write about the fact that they have low self esteem, as an xJW. Now, this not unique. I hear it all around me as part of the American culture. My question is why??? Why do you have low self esteem?
My wild, uncontemplated, uneducated guess it that our Western culture is highly competitive in many areas -- and any competition has winners or losers. Our personal status is largely determined by wealth (economic success) and looks (Vogue! GQ! Britney!), and probably other things I'm not aware of.
Take another competition: the Winter Olympics. In the Olympics, there's just one person in any kind of sport who is considered a "winner". Maybe three persons. But the vast majority of athletes are more or less "losers", even though they're still excellent.
So, I think massive self-esteem problems are bound to happen in any culture that emphasizes success in any sort of competition.
f.
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larc
Julie,
Thank you for clarifying your words. What you describe here has been called "learned helplessness", a condition where someone is in pain but don't think they can do anything about it. It is also similiar to Julien Rotter's concept of internal versus external control. The external control folks, thinks that the world controls them, and they can't change anything. Now, people that you describe are not going to go to a therapist, obviously.
Now, Julie, you just can't resist insulting people can you. My depth of ignorance as you call it is based on the ideas of Albert Ellis, who was voted by his professional peers as being the third most influential Clinical Psychologist in the history of the field. His method of therapy was a major breakthough at a time when it became clear the Freud's method of treatment was very ineffective, per a classic study by Hans Eyzenck, a British Psychologist.
Julie, do you have anger management issues to deal with??
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waiting
Julie,
Waiting, I read Larc's thread about therapy. I am not sure why you thought it might be something I'd want to comment on other than it is relevent to what I am trying to say here.
Yep - I thought it might be something you'd want to comment on - because it was a whole thread addressing the issue you're addressing here. Therapy addresses a lot of issues - which might include self esteem.Then we could have a couple of mental health threads going on different, albeit related, subjects.
waiting
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larc
Waiting,
You sure have a way with words. I would love to catch the next plane to SC. I could even help you with your Psych. homework. Alas, my wife won't give me a travel pass. She has gone throught the Ellis choices. She finaly figured out that she can't change me, so she doesn't waste time trying any more. She won't divorce me because she doesn't want to lower her standard of living. So, she has decided to put up with, my sorry ass.
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waiting
howdy larc,
She finaly figured out that she can't change me,
Took her long enough!so she doesn't waste time trying any more.
*sigh*, most of us come to that realization.She won't divorce me because she doesn't want to lower her standard of living.
yeah, that new dishwasher was a beaut!So, she has decided to put up with, my sorry ass.
I had her pegged as a smart woman from the start.waiting
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larc
Waiting,
Speaking of dishwashers, reminded me to tell you, my wife is a very fine cook, and she loves her kitchen toys as much as us guys like our fixem up tools. In recent Christmases, I have bought her a Kitchen Aid Mixer, a bread maker, and fine quality cutlery.
It is hard for us guys to figure out what to buy a woman. At one time, my wife did not have any jewelry that had her birth stone in it. So, I bought her a ring, later I bought her earings, then later I bought her a necklace. That go me through three birthdays, then I had to come up with a new plan.
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Julie
Greetings Larc,
You said:
:Now, Julie, you just can't resist insulting people can you.
Sure I can, I resist doing so quite often.
:My depth of ignorance as you call it is based on the ideas of Albert Ellis, who was voted by his professional peers as being the third most influential Clinical Psychologist in the history of the field. His method of therapy was a major breakthough at a time when it became clear the Freud's method of treatment was very ineffective, per a classic study by Hans Eyzenck, a British Psychologist.
Well Larc *pretending to be impressed with name-dropping*, I am quite sure that this "most influential Clinical Psychologist" would never have applied such an incredibly insensitive approach to a huge, broad group of people, suffering from various issues at various depths, including the one you addressed. Would the good doctor have been so flippant if he'd known he were addressing some who are severly emotionally/pschologically damaged (have you caught any of the suicide talk lately??)? I would sure like to think not.
No Larc, you came in here with your insensitive and broad generalization of an admonishment for those suffering from "low self-esteem", you use an extremely dimsissive tone regarding any childhood trauma they may have suffered (until called on that), you show no sympathy or acknowledgement of the fact that perhaps persons may not even be aware of this or other issues. You seem to project the attitutude that all people are aware of their situations, their mental state and their options (much less their own power to excersize such options) and go on to practically assert that they would just rather wallow in their sickness and misery, willingly and knowingly. I would like to think your good doctor would apply this sort of treatment in specific cases, like only where it applies. I highly doubt he would recommend such an approach to what may amount to a great many of people here that are nowhere near ready for such end-of-the-line therapy. Such things could only reasonably be said to the person who has come to realize what their problems are and how they came to be. How many here do you think that applies to? How many here do you think it does not apply to?
Even your "love yourself, it's the right thing to do" (paraphrased) comment, people who have had lifetime self-esteem problems cannot just turn self love on like a switch. They have to earn such regard from/for themselves just as we do from each other as humans. They need to prove to themselves they are worthy of such. Some guy telling them so just will not make that happen.
Perhaps it was just an ignorance of application of an established method then?
Then you suggest a possible diagnosis for me:
:Julie, do you have anger management issues to deal with??
ROFL!!!! Well if I did I can tell you that you would definitely not be the therapist for me!!
No but seriously, I do have a few issues I feel passsionately about. One would be how ignorant *so many* (*so many* meaning the population in general larc, not directed at you) are of how incredibly important those formative years of children are and how deep the damage goes for those who suffer much. Your post with its Get-over-it-you-crybaby tone was absurd and only helps to fuel such misconceptions that many already hold. Just thought I'd share with you my reasoning. I'll try to keep my feelings out of it next time--so as not to insult you or prompt unsolicited diagnosis from you, and maybe you could consider the method of "therapy" you apply here a bit more carefully (*hint* think "sensitivity").
Regards,
Julie