Hey Vidqun
Why I am doing this, I don’t know…
“With a perfect immune system, you would be able to ward off any disease.”
Of all the millions of examples, ill use one I mentioned…Downs Syndrome? It has NOTHING to do with immunity. It is a genetic misreading that occurs when the genes of the sperm and egg interact. Also what is wrong with our immune system? What needs fixing? Maybe I should mention I have studied the immune system in depth for my medical degree, so please provide evidence for your answers, every single statement needs evidence. As its fair, if you want evidence for anything I say, please just ask.
“ Because of imperfection you grow old and die.”
Sadly not the case, we have thousands of human and Neanderthal remains from hundreds of thousands of years ago, they died at a younger age than we do because of disease and natural wear and tear. Mostly teeth disease. Humans are not becoming more imperfect and therefore more ill. Please note that the human remains and Neanderthals are older than Adam (6000 years old). In fact life expectancy is rising and has done for some time.
People die because the organs give out. Our cells age as our telomere lengths reduce. Even if this was not the case (such as lobsters) you would still die as we are as fallible to death as an ant. As we age our organs become more and more damaged due to our life experience. Our blood vessels undergo wear and tear alongside a build up of troublesome plaque. All unavoidable.
For example, your teeth… they are made of a material with a particular strength… the tooth is a particular size that is practical for eating and communicating. The teeth WILL wear down with use, giving teeth a limited existence and the owner a limited life span. All organs can be compared to this. Note the limitation of organs such as teeth has no immunological connection.
“We were taught live cells (of the human body) are graveyards of viruses. When viruses replicate themselves they use our DNA/RNA. In the process, things can go wrong. One's DNA is changed or damaged. Cancer results. But an optimum immune system will keep out all bacteria and viruses. Problem solved.”
Sorry my friend, this is completely wrong. Cancer is a by-product of human diversity. We all look different and are different because of the way genes are replicated and are read. Reading errors provide diversity hence they have remained as diversity is beneficial. Cancer is not caused by viruses it is an error in the reading of dna (a genetic mutation). A minimum or 3 are required, more for angiogenesis and metastasis. These all require significant thought if it was a result of a punishment, so my question for believers remain… who designed this ? Who made sure we would REALLY suffer? In case you miss the point, a loving God would not do that. Also no longer can you claim with confidence thatGod wants to see this suffering end.. he designed every molecule of it!
Of course we know from science EXACTLY how cancer came about and know it was not designed as a punishment. Please go and read up on the pathology of cancer. I hope you are suitably embarrassed by your explanation for cancer and its.. easy fix.
“Mutations result because of faults in the DNA or RNA of our parents. When two of these faults overlap, its a disaster for the offspring. Since man chose independence from God, we have been going down hill fast.”
This is just made up. May I ask where you got this from as it is totally bizarre. Mutations occur in the cell of the host during mitosis. The source seems to be totally misunderstanding hereditary inheritance of genetic disease and genetic mutations. It’s also not always a disaster, where did you read that? Mutations can be beneficial. The reason your doctor tells you to finish your antibiotics, is that within the colony of bacteria you are suffering from, one will mutate a defence to the drug, not a disadvantage or ‘disaster’ at all. This is the same process as mutation in a human. An example for a human could be the mutation known as sickle cell anaemia, this mutation provides immunity to malaria. I am glad you admit that mutation exists however, as this is the one and only molecular basis for evolution. All evolution states is that
1) mutations occur
2) if beneficial that mutated organism will dominate in that environment
3) Over millions of years mutations alter species incrementally
All three can be seen in life today. As for it resulting in death well no as you can see mutations don’t lead to death. Consequence of a bad mutation can. But then again 10 out of 10 things die. We always have and always will. Without death there is no means of energy transfer, i.e. no nutritional cycle… no life.
“Babies are susceptible to many diseases because of underdeveloped immune systems. “
I don’t understand your focus on immunity. Babies are born and survive every day as the immune system is a perfectly fine system. Milk from the mother also provides antibodies. In what way is it broken and in what way could your god improve it? The only sense that a baby has a compromised immunity is that it has less memory B and T cells. These cells develop after an exposure to a specific disease, being a baby they have not been exposed to it obviously. Will your god give them memory B and T cells ? Why ? If there is no disease, the memory cells won’t be needed?
Going back to facts and known wisdom, babies do have disease, but not solely due to the immune system developing. They are multifactorial. Genetic and likewise. If exposed to infection then yes they can be killed. But that isn’t the only reason babies die! If a baby is born premature, without enough surfactant, it can’t breathe and dies… what has that got to do with immunity? Or a baby born with downs syndrome with a septal defect in the heart , it is born and dies from lack of perfusion to the brain. Where is the immune issue? If you don’t believe in evolution you have to accept that god designed all these complex processes in order to have that specific disease. With respect, you have no medical or scientific knowledge at all, but communicating it as if you know the subject. What you are doing is actually dangerous. You talk as if there is a switch in the immune system that has been turned off, though our immune system is working at its most functional. We know that bacteria and viruses were on the earth long before any other living animal today. This is the reason we have developed an immune system. ( I understand your ignorance will not cope with that statement just yet, please go read up on the evolution of the immune system to settle your doubts…… I’m sure you won’t however.) Besides, even if your conflicting to facts guess at Gods activity was correct, then still God would have had to design that switching off to cause as much suffering as possible.
“Old people are susceptible to many diseases because of faulty or aging immune systems. When cells are young, they flourish. When they become old they start dying off because of the "Border of Hayflick," something that could not be explained in my day.”
Hayflicks limit….[shakes head]...erm… as I said earlier this is the limit of telomere length, I have no doubt you pulled this from JW literature, and as usual they, and you…are totally ignorant to its understanding. Lobsters have cells that have no Hayflick limit. Do lobsters age? Do they live forever?
Human cells renew every 7 years, so what are you referring to when you say “when cells are young…” . Where have you got this information from? They don’t start dying off when you get old either. Cells ‘die off’ as early as the womb (apoptosis). They are just worn and torn due to reduced telomere length and life experience. If you really want to know then go read up on telomere length its effect on ageing. Maybe then you will be competent to ‘teach’ cell ageing to others online. But for now, you are like a man drowning in a sea of ignorance grasping at words that you don’t understand making them fit your world view . My friend, we have SCIENCE now, the means to learn via empirical evidence. Want to know why we age? Well we have the answers. Go read them. Or is that prickly fear stopping you, because you know the information available will identify the religion you inhabit false teachers and the bible oddly inaccurate ? You don’t fancy dealing with that, so for now… ignorance is bliss.
I bet when you get sick you go to the doctor , the doctor trained and educated with the same knowledge I am sharing here. Funny how the knowledge becomes trustworthy when its life and death.
“I was always impressed by the design and working of living cells. Man has not succeeded to create even one of them, even with the most advanced laboratories. That means man can replicate but he cannot create.”
I don’t think you have ANY understanding of the function of organelles (google it)and cellular activity. If you did you would see yes the complexity, but also the very simplicity of these functions.
Ok I really hope you read as far as this because I hope to garner your interest considerably
We can and have created life. A working living cell.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/05/20/AR2010052003336.html
We started off with just chemicals and formed the DNA, which was read by a ribosome and then created proteins, which formed the organelles etc and we ended up with a living, human made bacteria. Go research it for yourself. (Yes we used a ribosome from a cell to achieve this but before you go ‘ahhhh…..’ we are not far off making a ribosome artificially, its just a complex protein. I thought I would offer this to save you future embarrassment). I am awaiting for you to find a way to belittle the achievement. But while you do we will continue to make bacteria that we create to make oil. We will continue to make organs for medical research. We will continue to make babies in dishes for couples punished by god with infertility.
It’s such a strange thing to say that “man can only replicate, not create.” This sentence means nothing, yet it is spouted over and over again by Watchtower. Think about it… so what ? Who said we could create? ( see above because we can). Evolution says natural selection has motivated the dominance of genetic mutations in a species. Man copying sonar from a bat has no connection. Just a weird thing to say my friend.
If you have so much faith in the specific Jewish scrolls a pope once selected as gods holy books, over the work of men. Next time you get sick, or if you are currently sick, stop taking the meds and go consult the text. If you get cancer, stay away from the doctors and consult the bible. How much faith do you really have in the text over modern science? (Please don’t do this as you will die prematurely).
“…the above is compatible with my Bible-based faith, so I would explain it this way. “
And here we have the crux of the matter, the ‘nail on the head’. You want to believe an ancient text from the desert based on Babylonian, Egyptian and Jewish myth. Of course this text contradicts what we see and experience in today’s science. By this I mean facts. A closed mind then has to cope with this conflict… easy…. First: do not research recent findings and facts, and secondly…make up your own facts ….
“With a perfect immune system, you would be able to ward off any disease.”
“Because of imperfection you grow old and die.”
“We were taught live cells (of the human body) are graveyards of viruses. When viruses replicate themselves they use our DNA/RNA. In the process, things can go wrong. One's DNA is changed or damaged. Cancer results. But an optimum immune system will keep out all bacteria and viruses. Problem solved.”
“Mutations result because of faults in the DNA or RNA of our parents. When two of these faults overlap, its a disaster for the offspring. Since man chose independence from God, we have been going down hill fast.”
“Babies are susceptible to many diseases because of underdeveloped immune systems. “
“Old people are susceptible to many diseases because of faulty or aging immune systems. When cells are young, they flourish. When they become old they start dying off because of the "Border of Hayflick," something that could not be explained in my day.”
“man can replicate but he cannot create.”
If I asked you if you had a good knowledge of science, evolution, ageing, disease, biblical reasoning, theology, scriptural translation, history of the world, history of the Jews, … you may say yes. But apart from literature put in your hand from one source… how much actual research have you done to make sure your world view is right….. DINK DINK DINK….. I really hope that was the sound of a penny dropping.
May I suggest you start with “Biology” by Campbell and Reece. I will end by saying if you prove anything in a scientific textbook wrong or even questionable, they will be grateful to hear it and alter the knowledge accordingly. (Hypothesis generation, empirical facts, replicable testing and results alongside peer review will be required however, they won’t permit you to make shit up.)
Snare X
Back to my medical exams….
