Who designed cancer?

by snare&racket 148 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  Vidqun

  S&R, you are very clever indeed. Why don't you tell us simpletons how viruses work. How do they replicate? Do try to explain in simple words, so that we all can understand. Then bring in the immune system, please, seeing your the expert. Feel free to quote the experts. No, don't sigh. As I said before. View it as revision and teaching. One's never too old to learn. I like your P.S. a very mature way of concluding your presentation, or is the heat getting to you?

  I am sure you have some spectacular books on evolution. If you study and accept their theories, you are just as gullible as I am, believing in God. Glad you brought up apes turning into men. Do you know how ridiculous that sounds? With your knowledge of genetics you should know better. And the eye, we started with one eye, then a mutation happened with two eyes. That one survived. The ones with the single eye did not survive, because they could not see the predators coming. Now that's what I call silly. Let's not go there.
• 

  cofty

  I am sure you have some spectacular books on evolution. If you study and accept their theories, you are just as gullible as I am, believing in God

  It's painful to read this sort of commnet. Please tell us what quality books you have read on the subject. Why do the aniti-science cult think its ok to spout dogmatic opinions about stuff they know nothing about. You spend years being indoctrinated with superstitious woo but wont commit a few years to get properly aquainted with information that could change your whole worldview. Congratulations on your self imposed ignorance but at least have the decency to be suitably embarassed about it.
• 

  snare&racket

  The moment you think you are clever, you are mistaken. I have a huge issue with self confidence in my academic ability and knowlege, you could not (once again) be further from the truth.

  How would describing the viral proliferation mechanism contribute anything to your point? I dont think you understand what you are saying. Viruses invade cells and turn the cell into a virus making machine. Thats it. SOME viruses, retro viruses, alter DNA and RNA. Notice there is no immune involvment. Eventually, NK cells attack virus controlled cells. But whats your point ? Viruses are not the means of all disease, far from it.

  I am no expert, its both comical and ironic that you think I am. The P.s. was a refernce to me saying you worship the designer of all diseases, i had to clarify that was not of course true. No heat at all. I am bewildered at your lengthy chit chat responses that contain no evidence to the contrary of modern science. Just snidey comments.

  As for my books on evolution (we call them textbooks) they are just your average biology reference books. I would love you to go through a biology book and SPECIFY thr factual inaccuracies. This is alot harder than saying "it isnt true." What part of evoloutionary science do you believe to be a lie and do you have evidence to back up your claim? Please bare in mind, that the science does have the evidence. See what you are up against?

  Why does accepting evolutionary facts make me gullible? These are facts based on results I myself can and have reproduced in a lab. They are based on evidences I have seen felt and touched. I dont use faith in my science. I assume you will deny this, please give an example.

  I mentioned apes turning into men as it is a nonsensical question. Apes have never turned into men. No legitimate scientist has ever said they have and hence they never will.

  We started with one eye ? Seriously.. where the hell do you get this "science" from.... this pseudo- nonsense is embarassing to read. Of course what you describe is silly, its not evolution. As with all your facts, its not true. Just like the society you offer no facts or proof just your feelings. Science thankfully is not based on feelings. Its often unituitave. For example in a room of 21 people , 2 people will share a birthday. The numbers feel wrong, but the science doesnt depend on gut feelings. You think its silly that a cell can evolve into a human being over millions of years, yet we watch a single cell turn into a baby in just 9 months.

  I am going to end the chat here, I wish you well and hope you bite your pride and open a textbook. I would like to ask one final thing though, you talk about having a scientific approach because of your scientific background.

  What degree do you have ?
• 

  Vidqun

  Cofty, ever been to the Natural Science Museum in London? Next to it they were constructing the Darwin Centre. Think they probably finished by now. I spent quite a bit of time in this museum, not too long ago. I was not swayed by the arguments that were presented there.

  So, if you don't have anything constructive to add, don't say anything. I am sorry for your pain. I really feel for you. And what do they say: Ignorance is bliss. But I'd rather be ignorant than arrogant. If you convice me otherwise, you have a hearing ear. But with insults you're not going to get very far. Take my word for it.
• 

  cofty

  You spent an afternoon in the Natural History Museum (there is no natural science museum in London) and you think that qualifies you to even have an opinion - wow!

  Try a few textbooks and invest years of effort then tell us what you think and why. I hav eloads constructive to add but so far you haven't said anything about why in your esteemed opinion evolution is wrong.
• 

  TD

  From a Biblical persective it's not too hard to explain: With a perfect immune system, you would be able to ward off any disease.

  What is a perfect immune system in relation to disease? Does that mean you're born with inate immunity against every possible pathogen?

  The reason I ask is because the ability to ward off disease is only a small part of your immune system. Much more of it is devoted to actively fighting a disease after it has penetrated your defenses and infected you.

  If we want to be technical, a raging fever; nasal discharge and sneezing along with the misery that accompanies them are all aspects of your immune system in action.
• 

  Anony Mous

  Oh Vidqun, you use the same old arguments that have been used by creationists a long time. You seriously do not understand the process of evolution because Apes -> Men and the Eye evolving are so old and boring, watch any YouTube video or any book on the subject and they'll explain it to you, I'm starting to think you're trolling by now.

  On the subject again: Virusses and bacteria are the prime example of evolution because new generations get produced in very short periods of time (seconds, minutes, days) that any 'beneficial' mutation (those that give it an edge in any part of the process of reproduction) quickly creates a whole new strain of bacteria/virii (see common cold, flu, the recent discovery of the experiment with avian flu in ferrets) so that new strains (new subspecies - on the equivalent of going from H. Sapiens Idaltu to Homo Sapiens) can evolve in about a year or two in the wild.

  If you want to extrapolate, virusses that multiply in a matter of minutes take 1-2 years to evolve into a tiny change that is successful enough for it to be potent. H. Sapiens multiplies itself on the order of once every 20 years. If you want evidence of H. Sapiens 'evolving', look at the skeleton and skulls of humans in the well-preserved Dark Ages (you know, knights and so on). They're a lot less tall and have a slightly smaller skull than what is currently the average.
• 

  Vidqun

  Microbiology III, Physiology II, Anatomy III. Work it out for yourself.

  Very interesting. You discuss viruses and then you say "no immune involvement". Take note, your immune system has been designed to protect you form them. E.g. AIDS. Because the virus takes out your B-lymphocytes, it effectively paralyzes your immune system. The following has been taken from Wikipedia:

  The symptoms of AIDS are primarily the result of conditions that do not normally develop in individuals with healthy immune systems. Most of these conditions are infections caused by bacteria, viruses, fungi and parasites that are normally controlled by the elements of the immune system that HIV damages.

  The virus, entering through which ever route, acts primarily on the following cells: [ 74 ]

  • Lymphoreticular system:
    • CD 4 + T-Helper cells
    • Macrophages
    • Monocytes
    • B-lymphocytes
  • Certain endothelial cells
  • Central nervous system:
    • Microglia of the nervous system
    • Astrocytes
    • Oligodendrocytes
    • Neurones – indirectly by the action of cytokines and the gp-120

  Quite a bit of new formation here. It demonstrates my argument well. A healthy immune system can protect you against commensals as well as pathogens. However, a compromised immune system is susceptible to viruses, bacteria, fungi, and parasites.
• 

  tec

  So I guess my question is, IF you believe god created everything,

  I don't. Yes, I believe He created man, planets, the universe(s), etc - everything in that sense. But what we choose to do with His creation has consequences in turn, good or bad. We know that a lot of diseases are of our doing. Often we choose to ignore that e x posure to (a) leaves a person vulnerable to (b). We often ignore the effects and warnings because money is at stake. (sometimes discovery of something as well, but a scientist will know the risk and go into it willingly or not)

  As for the ones that we don't think are of our own doing, well, I think evolution does e x plain them. We adapt and change to survive to the physical conditions/environment around us. I don't know if there can be two different rules for living organisms. Meaning, I don't think animals, humans, immune systems, plants, etc... can evolve and adapt to survive; without organisms such as bacteria (some of which is GOOD for us), and viruses and diseases also having the ability to evolve and adapt. It is all part of the process of life - without which nothing would be able to adapt and evolve.

  Peace,

  Tammy
• 

  cofty

  tec you make evolution by natural selection sound like it was the marvelous idea of a clever designer/god.

  The vast majority of things that have ever lived proved to be evolutionary dead-ends. Almost every living thing in the history of the earth died of starvation or predation or disease. Thousands of generations of human ancestors died agonisingly of diseases that we would now sort with a quick visit to the doctors or dentists. Millions died of impacted teeth or in child birth or of simple infections.

  Evolution is the most wasteful, uncaring, unfeeling, brutal force imaginable. Its awesome but it is not the idea of your loving god.