WT Mar 15th 2012 - 144,000 no longer a literal number?

by dozy 81 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  dozy

  Reading idly through this magazine , I read the study article "Rejoicing in our Hope" which discusses the two "hopes" according to the WTBTS ie heaven & earth.

  A couple of points were of interest:

  (1) Absolutely no mention at all of the 144,000 or Rev 14. Usually an article like this would be filled with references , but it isn't even mentioned. It does discuss the "limited number" , but only in contrast with the "no man can number" great crowd.

  (2) A much more laid back attitude towards the two hopes. Usually , anyone even considering "anointed" status is warned against over-reaching themselves and there is some reference to how most people would have the earthly hope. There is a picture of various middle aged & older (but not ancient) "anointed" ones (presumably to stop presumptious 20 year olds from claiming).

  My speculation: the WTBTS have finally thrown the towel in on this doctrine. They have seen how the number partaking continues to climb , despite all their efforts. They also have finally done the maths & admitted that the sums just don't add up - over 100,000 (probably many more) Christians in the 1st century , over 40,000 in the early part of the 20th century partaking & nearly 2,000 years during which supposedly there were always faithful men & women present.

  Look out for: a "new thought" that the 144K shouldn't be taken as a literal number , any more so than the 12,000 in each of the 12 heavenly tribes are literal.
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  jonathan dough

  over 100,000 (probably many more) Christians in the 1st century,

  Not to mention the millions of Christians in the second and third centuries persecuted horribly, which they don't believe were Christians at all because there was only one choice, anointed or not. Am I wrong? Where do the JWs place those post-first-century Christians that were thrown to the lions? Burned at the stake? Are they considered apostates? Pagans?

  3 were Anointed the other 1,780,659 were Other Sheep..

  It was my understanding that there were no Other Sheep in the first century. If you were a Christian back then you were anointed. There was no Great Crowd, no alternative. Can someone point me to something in writing?
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  Think About It

  And the sheep will continue to eat the shit.

  Think About It
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  designs

  3 were Anointed the other 1,780,659 were Other Sheep..
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  Vanderhoven7

  Right. As I understand WTS teaching, the Great Crowd began forming in the 20th century...sometime after the apostle Paul was resurrected in the spring of 1918.
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  wha happened?

  1951 9/1 WT

  Brief respite followed the death of Nero, but by the latter years of the first century the second great persecution, under Emperor Domitian, flared up. It is said that in the year 95 alone some 40,000 suffered martyrdom. Like Nero, Domitian is found of demented traits. Earlier he had slain his own brother and a number of Roman senators. One of his decrees commanded the death of all of the lineage of David. In this ruler's persecution a number of prominent Christians suffered, including, according to Blanchard in his Book of Martyrs, the Timothy to whom Paul wrote two canonical letters. Also, it was in this period that John, last living of the twelve apostles, was exiled to the isle of Patmos, from where he recorded the inspired Bible book of Revelation about A.D. 96.

  Do the math. 40k killed, how many lived? 144k was probably reached in the 1st century according to thier definition
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  Mary

  Do the math. 40k killed, how many lived? 144k was probably reached in the 1st century according to thier definition

  Bingo. I asked a similar question years and years ago when I was still a believing Dub. I asked a friend who was an elder "Who exactly is keeping track of the number of annointed ones throughout the centuries?" I wasn't trying to be smart---I thought it was a reasonable answer. All I got for my efforts was a blank stare and a "let's go out for a beer" request.
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  metatron

  You may just be observing different factions within the Watchtower. The Service Dept. tends to be run by Nazis and the Writing Dept. by slightly more liberal, out-of-context-quoting, hacks.

  This was made especially manifest during the Recovered Memory Controversy.

  If they get too many partakers, you may be on to something.

  metatron
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  cyberjesus

  Do you think they could change that doctrine? that would be a big stretch.. when did they come up with that number?
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  moshe

  It remains to be seen how the new partakers will be viewed by the "Other sheep"- for if there is no more any 144,000, then the WT game plan for the other sheep JWs has just gotten dicey, too.