by dozy 81 Replies latest watchtower bible
An opportunity to divorce the 'great crowd' of Revelation 19 from the 'other sheep' of John 10?
Now with >144,000 in heaven the great crowd can ACTUALLY be before the throne in heaven.
After all Rutherford never gave any sort of proof or explanation why these two groups were synonymous.
George
5. Make birthdays a conscience issue.
Will NEVER happen. It (as well as the banning of all holidays) is quite effective at making the members not fit it with outsiders,creating an uncomfortable situation as early as schoolage kids by making them different so they do not fit in. This decreases the likelihood of close relationships forming with outsiders- thus not having any support system outside of the org.
A few years back i had asked Ray Franz via email if a discussion ever came up on the governing body to make holidays/b-days a conscience matter and he said no, that issue never came up during his tenure on the body.
Overheard at the GB Meeting: " Hey these people on JWN have just given us some great ideas to finally solve all the problems we have with the 144K continuing to grow at a rate faster than the great crowd! - lets get it into Towerspeak!!"
Wow, great catch, dozy! I suspect this is part of the gradual weaning process. I told my parents (before I was DF'd) that the doctrine of a literal 144,000 anointed would have to be dropped eventually. I'm wondering if I put that in an email - I'd love to FWD it to my brother when the time is right.
They will perhaps stop talking about it until one day, nobody that is still 'in' will know about it...
Kinda like all the old rutherford crap.
and the witnesses will go ''we never taught that!" you silly fool.
Oz
I can see the WTS adopting the doctrine that the number 144,000 is symbolic and not literal. After all, there have been changes of a similar nature in the past and this one would be relatively easy to make. All they would have to do is point out that there was no tribe of Joseph in ancient Israel and that the tribe of Levi was given no land inheritance save for forty-eight cities scattered throughout Israel's territory. That means the named tribes in Revelation are symbolic so the number must be also. The rank-and-file will eat it up especially since that will resolve the embarrassing issue of the number of Memorial partakers increasing year after year.
However, there may be some who will balk. One question that is bound to occur to any objective or impartial thinker is this. How could Jehovah allow his "organization" to teach and enforce belief in a false doctrine for all these decades? After all, if he is really guiding the WTS, a false teaching about a bedrock doctrine such as this one should have been exposed and rejected in the same moment it was proposed, shouldn't it? And if Jehovah did nothing then there are only two possibilities. Either God himself is complicit in the teaching of false doctrine or he is not directing the organization. And if some start thinking that way should such a sea change in doctrine occur, could that mean even bigger trouble for the WTS later?
Quendi
I can see why they must back off from a literal 144,000. They have not choice.
II. Assuming that the 144,000 are in heaven, the number 144,000 representing the sealed servants of God mentioned in chapters 7 and 14 in the book of Revelation cannot be taken literally. Like many other signs in Revelation it is merely symbolic.
That the messages in the book of Revelation were conveyed primarily in signs or symbols and not meant to be interpreted literally is evident in the opening chapter: “A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him, to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place. And he sent forth his angel and presented [it] in signs through him to his slave John …. (Rev. 1:1,2 [New World Translation (NWT]). As any Bible reader can attest, Revelation is filled with symbolic imagery, such as a “red dragon with seven heads and ten horns,” (Rev. 12:3), and numeric symbolism: “the number of the beast … is six-hundred and sixty-six” (Rev. 13:18).
Given the prevalence of this symbolism one must be careful interpreting numbers or images literally, such as the 144,000 sealed servants of God in chapters 7 and 14. Though the Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that only 144,000 go to heaven, a deeper analysis of Scripture shows that this number cannot be a literal representation and that the book’s author purposed a symbolic or figurative meaning.
Much criticism has been leveled against the Jehovah’s Witnesses in this regard because the underlying components of the 144,000, that is, the nature and identity of the individuals who make up the 144,000 are clearly symbolic. It makes little sense to premise a literal number on symbolic numbers and individuals. If you build a house made of wood one would expect that you end up with a wooden house, not a plastic one. In chapter 7 John writes of hearing the number of the sealed 144,000 and then seeing the Great Crowd.
1 After this I saw four angels standing upon the four corners of the earth, holding tight the four winds of the earth, that no wind might blow upon the earth or upon the sea or upon any tree. 2 And I saw another angel ascending from the sunrising, having a seal of [the] living God; and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, 3 saying: “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until after we have sealed the slaves of our God in their foreheads.”
4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed, a hundred and forty- four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel:
5 Out of the tribe of Judah twelve thousand sealed;
out of the tribe of Reu´ben twelve thousand;
out of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand;6 out of the tribe of Ash´er twelve thousand;
out of the tribe of Naph´ta·li twelve thousand;
out of the tribe of Ma·nas´seh twelve thousand;7 out of the tribe of Sim´e·on twelve thousand;
out of the tribe of Le´vi twelve thousand;
out of the tribe of Is´sa·char twelve thousand;8 out of the tribe of Zeb´u·lun twelve thousand;
out of the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand;
out of the tribe of Benjamin twelve thousand sealed.9 After these things I saw, and, look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands. 10 And they keep on crying with a loud voice, saying: “Salvation [we owe] to our God, who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb.”
11 And all the angels were standing around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and they fell upon their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying: “Amen! The blessing and the glory and the wisdom and the thanksgiving and the honor and the power and the strength [be] to our God forever and ever. Amen.”
13 And in response one of the elders said to me: “These who are dressed in the white robes, who are they and where did they come from?” 14 So right away I said to him: “My lord, you are the one that knows.” And he said to me: “These are the ones that come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 That is why they are before the throne of God; and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple; and the One seated on the throne will spread his tent over them. 16 They will hunger no more nor thirst anymore, neither will the sun beat down upon them nor any scorching heat, 17 because the Lamb, who is in the midst of the throne, will shepherd them, and will guide them to fountains of waters of life. And God will wipe out every tear from their eyes.” (Revelation 7:1-17 NWT)
In Revelation 14:1-5 the 144,000 are seen on Mount Zion, but the Great Crowd is not in sight.
1 And I saw, and, look! the Lamb standing upon the Mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand having his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads. 2 And I heard a sound out of heaven as the sound of many waters and as the sound of loud thunder; and the sound that I heard was as of singers who accompany themselves on the harp playing on their harps. 3 And they are singing as if a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one was able to master that song but the hundred and forty-four thousand, who have been bought from the earth. 4 These are the ones that did not defile themselves with women; in fact, they are virgins. These are the ones that keep following the Lamb no matter where he goes. These were bought from among mankind as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb, 5 and no falsehood was found in their mouths; they are without blemish.
The underlying symbolic components are numerous. First, Rev. 7:4-8 states that the 144,000 came from every tribe of the Israelites and then lists the names of what appear to be the original twelve tribes, but are not. As the Jehovah’s Witnesses point out, “there never was a tribe of Joseph, the tribes of Ephraim and Dan are not included in the list here, and the Levites were set aside for service in connection with the temple but were not reckoned as one of the twelve tribes. See Numbers 1:4-16” (Reasoning 166, 167). As such, the Jehovah’s Witnesses view the twelve tribes of the 144,000 symbolically.
Secondly, the sealed 144,000 listed are Jews, yet the Jehovah’s Witnesses regard this as symbolic as well for they believe they are comprised of both Jews and gentiles (Reasoning, 166, 167).
Third, whereas the listed 144,000 are made up of twelve distinct groups of twelve thousand members each, the Jehovah’s Witnesses also regard these numbers as symbolic. They have never classified or categorized those who go to heaven in twelve groups of 12,000 yet are quick to calculate them literally to arrive at 144,000 (12 x 12,000 = 144,000).
Fourth, the “seal on the foreheads of the servants” (Rev. 7:3), and the Lamb and His Father’s names which are written on the foreheads of the 144,000 (Rev. 14:1) represent figuratively, for the Jehovah’s Witnesses, God’s final approval. In their words, “God’s holy spirit serves as a seal that gives those sealed a token in advance of their inheritance, a heavenly one” (Insight, 253, 254). It is symbolic.
Fifth, Revelation 7:4 literally states that the 144,000 elect are virgin men: “These are the ones that did not defile themselves with women; in fact they are virgins.” But as anyone familiar with the Jehovah’s Witnesses knows, the 144,000 are comprised of men and women, married and single; they regard these provisions symbolically as well.
Sixth, additional evidence that the 144,000 number is not to be taken literally is found at Galatians 3:26-29 and Romans 9:6-8 where the apostle Paul makes clear that those who are rewarded with heaven due so in part as a consequence of God’s promise to the patriarch Abraham, and that the 144,000 heirs to the heavenly promise by virtue of faith are countless, without number, as numerous as the stars in the sky.
26 YOU are all, in fact, sons of God through YOUR faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For all of YOU who were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female; for YOU are all one [person] in union with Christ Jesus. 29 Moreover, if YOU belong to Christ, YOU are really Abraham’s seed, heirs with reference to a promise. (Galatians 3:26-29 NWT).
Abraham’s seed - descendant heirs according to the promise - are also identified at Romans 9:6-8 where Paul makes clear that the heirs to the heavenly promise are not limited to fleshly Israel.
6 However, it is not as though the word of God had failed. For not all who [spring] from Israel are really “Israel.” 7 Neither because they are Abraham’s seed are they all children, but: “What will be called ‘your seed’ will be through Isaac.” 8 That is, the children in the flesh are not really the children of God, but the children by the promise are counted as the seed. (Rom. 9:6-8 NWT).
Paul is referring to Genesis 15:5 where God promised Abraham that he would make his descendants like the stars of the sky, a promise that would eventually extend beyond fleshly Israel and encompass Christians.
5 He now brought him outside and said: “Look up, please, to the heavens and count the stars, if you are possibly able to count them.” And he went on to say to him: “So your seed will become.” (Gen. 15:5 NWT).
This Abrahamic promise was reaffirmed and recounted by Abraham’s grandson Jacob while praying to God for deliverance from his brother Esau.
“Unquestionably I shall deal well with you and will constitute your seed like the grains of sand of the sea which cannot be numbered for multitude.” (Gen. 32:12 NWT).
Given these verses it is difficult to imagine how the heirs to the heavenly promise number a mere 144,000. They do not. They will be countless, vast; large in actual numbers yet small in proportion to the billions who have ever inhabited earth. Never-the-less, the Jehovah’s Witnesses counter that those countless heaven-bound individuals are countless because they could not be counted at that time.
“God revealed the purpose and accomplishments of the Abrahamic covenant, saying that through Abraham the seed of promise would come; this seed would possess the gate of his enemies; Abraham’s seed through Isaac would number many, uncountable to man at that time.” (Insight, 522).
Well, I suppose they are correct in the sense that the heirs to the promise could not be counted so many thousands of years ago because they had not yet been born, and therefore there was nobody to count, but that’s not what the Almighty meant. Regardless of the ultimate count it seems evident that the heirs to the promise will eventually dwarf a mere 144,000. Even the Israelites who numbered in the millions were referred to as being as numerous as the stars (Deut. 1:10).
Seventh, that the 144,000 is not an exact number is made manifest by Jesus’ statement that the patriarchs Abraham, Isaac and Jacob will also be in heaven:
11 But I tell YOU that many from eastern parts and western parts will come and recline at the table with Abraham and Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of the heavens; … (Matt. 8:11 NWT).
Central to the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ beliefs is the doctrine that the “Kingdom is in heaven, not earth” (NWT at 1653) and that neither the patriarchs, ancient prophets or anyone before the time of Christ goes to heaven. Yet somehow, in an effort to dislodge the patriarchs from heaven and disavow the words of Christ they theorize that this banquet in the kingdom of heaven is actually on earth.
The inspired writer of Hebrews also stated that the patriarchs and other men of old sought a heavenly reward, not earthly, and that this heavenly destination was achieved on the basis of their faith.
In faith died all these, not having received the promises, but from afar having seen them, and having been persuaded, and having saluted [them], and having confessed that strangers and sojourners they are upon the earth, 14 for those saying such things make manifest that they seek a country; 15and if, indeed, they had been mindful of that from which they came forth, they might have had an opportunity to return, 16 but now they long for a better, that is, an heavenly, wherefore God is not ashamed of them, to be called their God, for He did prepare for them a city ... [Heb. 11:13-16 Young's Literal Translation; also NIV (a better country—a heavenly one), NAS (a better country, that is, a heavenly one), NLT (heavenly homeland), KJV (a better country, that is, an heavenly), ESV (a better country, that is, a heavenly one), ASV (a better country, that is, a heavenly)].
None-the-less, the Jehovah’s Witnesses teach, incorrectly, that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob will not go, and never wanted to go, to heaven. This is understandable because to concede otherwise would completely erode their 144,000 theory.
Who are the “righteous” that are to be resurrected? These will include faithful servants of God who lived before Jesus Christ came to earth. Many of these persons are mentioned by name in Hebrews chapter 11. They did not hope to go to heaven, but hoped to live again on earth (Live Forever, 1989, Resurrection - for Whom? And Where? 172, 20).
If they had kept remembering and longing for the place they had left, they would have had an opportunity to return. But they were reaching out for a better place - ultimately life on paradise earth under God’s heavenly kingdom. - Hebrews 11:15,16. (W94 5/15 30, Coping With Homesickness in God’s Service).And there is no question about the spiritual strength of those men and women of faith listed in Hebrews chapter 11. None of those were “born again.” All of them looked forward to “a better resurrection [to life under God’s kingdom] right here on this earth. - Hebrews 11:35. (W82 2/1c 29 “Born Again” - Man’s Part and God’s Part).
It is difficult to believe that millions of Jehovah’s Witnesses, perhaps unwittingly, believe this without blinking an eye and completely ignore the clear words of Scripture; but they do. Never-the-less, because at a minimum Abraham, Isaac and Jacob will go to heaven, the 144,000 is symbolic and numbers at least 144,003. The final number cannot be ascertained, but is countless in the sense that it will be in the millions.
Eighth, the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ congregation of 144,000 who were and are on earth included Jesus as one of their spiritual brothers. He is the high priest and like any high priest or pastor, deacon or bishop, is a fellow member of that community. The Jehovah’s Witnesses recognize as much:
The inspired application of David’s words recorded at Psalm 22:22 to Jesus Christ at Hebrews 2:12 shows that the term “congregation” can be applied to include the head thereof, Jesus Christ. Partly quoting David, the writer to the Hebrews stated: “For both he who is sanctifying and those who are being sanctified all stem from one, and for this cause he [Jesus Christ] is not ashamed to call them ‘brothers,’ as he says: I will declare your name to my brothers; in the middle of the congregation I will praise you with song” (Heb. 2:11, 12). (Insight, 498).
But if only 144,000 go to heaven, then the spiritually anointed while on earth would number only 143,999, and in heaven they would number 144,001 due to the inclusion and then exclusion of Christ in that congregation, who as the Lamb in heaven at Revelation 14:1 is seen as standing apart from his brothers. The 144,000 cannot be taken literally. Their congregation cannot be one body on earth and another in heaven.
Christians have recognized the symbolic nature of the 144,000 for decades. It is “… the square of twelve a thousand fold, a symbol of the completeness of God’s People” (N. Turner, Peake’s Commentary on the Bible [London: Nelson and Sons, Ltd., 1964], 1050) (Peake’s Commentary).
Ninth, the Jehovah’s Witnesses make essentially five arguments in support of distinguishing the 144,000 from the Great Crowd, an issue which goes beyond the scope of this paper because we are concerned here not so much with whether the 144,000 and the Great Crowd are the same or not, but whether the Great Crowd is standing on earth pursuant to an earthly salvation plan, or in heaven before God’s throne. The Jehovah’s Witnesses’ argument that the 144,000 and Great Crowd are not the same can be found at pp. 996-997 of their Insight into the Holy Scriptures for those interested. They go to great length to keep these two groups separate and go so far as to greatly mischaracterize Scripture in this regard.
Rev. 7:9, 10: “After these things [after the apostle John saw the full number of “sealed” ones who had been “bought from the earth” to be with Christ on heavenly Mount Zion; see Revelation 7:3, 4; 14:1-3] I saw, and, look! A great crowd, …” (Reasoning, 166).
This is false because at no time does John ever see the 144,000 and Great Crowd together at the same time or on the same page. In Revelation chapter 7 he only hears the number of the sealed 144,000 in an earthly vision as four angels stand at the four corners of the earth, and then sees the Great Crowd. In chapter 14 where John sees the 144,000 on Mount Zion he does not see the Great Crowd. These two sightings are separated by six chapters and numerous apocalyptic events, and for many other reasons, a strong argument can be made that the 144,000 and the Great Crowd are the same.
But the main issue here is not whether the 144,000 and Great Crowd in heaven are distinct groups or the same entity, but whether the Great Crowd which “stood before the throne in heaven” is actually standing on earth in an “approved condition.” As will be expanded upon below, the Great Crowd standing on earth rather than in heaven is core to the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ salvation doctrine; without it they have no claim to legitimacy, no religion. For 99.99999% of the world’s population - as a member of the surviving Great Crowd or the 20 billion resurrected - salvation is an earthly, fleshly aspiration, according to the Jehovah's Witnesses.
Tenth, in admonishing the scribes and Pharisees, Jesus said:
...you hypocrites. You lock the kingdom of heaven before human beings. You do not enter yourselves, nor do you allow entrance to those trying to enter. (Matthew 23:13 NAB)
Because the earth shall be destroyed, the resurrected, and the Great Crowd, cannot be ruled over by the 144,000 from heaven
What specific NT language supports their theory that salvation for the little people comes from "association" with the 144,000?
jwfacts.com
http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/144000.php
jwfacts.com
http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/memorial-partakers.php
towerwatch.com
http://www.towerwatch.com/Witnesses/statistics/partakers.htm
Good stuff here
jehovahs-witness.net
http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/bible/140754/1/The-Truth-From-the-Bible-About-the-144-000
4jehovah.org
http://4jehovah.org/wdgrs01q02.php
mmoutreachinc.com
http://www.mmoutreachinc.com/jehovahs_witnesses/144Mimpossible.html
mmoutreachinc.com
http://www.mmoutreachinc.com/jehovahs_witnesses/jws_144000.html
mmoutreachinc.com
http://www.mmoutreachinc.com/jehovahs_witnesses/144000_anointed.html
kingmessiahproject.com
http://www.kingmessiahproject.com/jw_144K_great_multitude.html
I agree JD,
I see as well that the 144,000 and the Great company are actually the same group being described in two different settings and in two different time frames. The 144000 and the Great crowd both represent the entire church of God. The 144,000 in scene one (verses 1 – 8) represent God's view or perspective of His perfect church... and scene 2 represents what John sees from a human perspective. So there is a contrast here, but its not one of numbers, but perspective, divine versus human.
Looking at the number 144,000 a little more closely... How is God to numerically express the entire church down through history? When you apply the promise to Abraham of an innumerable progeny, comparable to the stars in the heaven for number, we would certainly be dealing with a sizable group, an innumerable group, How is God to give a definite total for such an innumerable multitude? Why couldn't it be by a number which no man could number,- ie. by a symbol- which stands for completion and perfect symmetry?
David Chilton, in his excellent commentary on Revelation entitled, "Days of Vengeance" page 206 says
“The number 144,000 is obviously symbolic: twelve (the number of Israel) squared, then multiplied by 1000 (ten and its multiples symbolizing many; cf. Deut. 1:11; Ps.50:10; 68:17; 84:10; 90:4). St. John pictures for us the ideal Israel, Israel as it was meant to be, in all its perfection, symmetry, and completeness."
There is further biblical support that the 144,000 and the Great Multitude are identical, that they really are the same group being described from two different perspectives, divine and human. John heard the (perfect) number; then he saw the actual group. This "hearing" then "seeing" sequencing is a literary device that THE APOSTLE John uses frequently in Revelation to display his images from different viewpoints. David Chilton demonstrates this pattern of hearing and seeing on page 213 of:”Days of Vengeance:”
“For example, in 1:10-13, St. John hears a Voice, then turns
to see the Lord; in 5:5-6, he hears the Lion of Judah, then
sees the Lamb; in 6:1-8, he hears a living creature say "Come!"
- then sees the object of the creatures command. The same
pattern appears in this chapter: St. John tells us, I heard the
number of those who were sealed (v.4); then, after these things
- after hearing the number of the redeemed - I looked, and behold
a Great Multitude (v.9).
There is one church indivisible; the Great crowd is not a piddly 7 million Watchtowerites which we can all number; and the number of those sealed by the Spirit of God is a perfect number, representing a perfect innumerable body of believers....as promised to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
correct me because it's been a while since I cracked open the Reveleation book, but don't the annointed here on earth pray to the elders that represent the 144k? I remewmber a study where it seemed like the groups were seperate
