All religions who call themselves christian begin with the disgraceful premise that we are sinners, enemies of god and worthy only of his wrath, that all our good deeds are filthy rags, and that it took human blood sacrifice to assuage the wrath of god with whom we have an accounting. That every second of the day god knows everything we do and even our most secret thoughts for which we will be judged.NC, the above entire statement is what Burns said wasn't even close to being true. You chose only the part about us being sinners in need of a savior. But there was a lot more to that which he responded to.
Atheism 2.0
by Qcmbr 384 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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tec
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tec
One does not separate from friends
If one wrongs a friend and hides that from that friend, sometimes even from themselves, then one DOES often separate from friends. Out of guilt. Because looking at that friend is a reminder of the wrong that you did. Out of not wanting to be reminded of the wrong you did to them. (your sin against them) Often though, if you confess to your friend, and are forgiven, then you are reconciled to that friend. But if you hide it from them and yourself, then there is a seperation there... a gulf between you.
And as far as good deeds being filthy rags---maybe you don't like the way it was said---but again, a true concept. Christianity teaches that if one is not reconciled, through Jesus, to a punishing god, they are cast away---much like filthy rags.
Some do teach that. Some don't teach that.
Peace,
tammy
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NewChapter
Tec, tone aside, what part of that statement is untrue? These concepts are indeed taught in the churches.
We are all sinners, enemies of god and worthy only of his wrath: God will punish the unrepentant sinner. Without sacrifice, it leaves only God's wrath. All our good deeds are filthy rags: Sinners are thrown into the lake of fire, gehenna, hell---whatever. Good deeds and all. Human blood sacrifice to assuage the wrath of god with whom we hae an accounting: Well---Jesus. God's wrath is spoken of repeatedly against sinners. Every second of the day god knows everything we do and even our most secret thoughts for which we will be judged---Are you saying the churches don't teach that god knows what we are thinking????? Are you suggesting that they don't think we are judged on these----coveting is a sin. A thought crime. Enemies of god and worthy only of his wrath----If this is not taught, then what exactly does it mean to be reconciled to god on the basis of the human blood sacrifice. Look Tec, I get that the tone was harsh. But the statements were true. I am not ignorant to these things---I have been to many churches, read many books, attended bible studies, retreats, meetings with pastors----everyone one of these statements define underlying principals. This may not be your brand of Christianity, but these teachings are not in the minority either.
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tec
Maybe I don't have enough ex perience in churches. I can see evangelicals and cults/fundies teaching all of this. But there are also much more liberal views that do not hold to these teachings. The mainstream sects, perhaps... but not all of them either; and some of them might have more liberal offshoots. There are christians sects that do not teach hell. (minority perhaps, but growing) There are some that don't teach inherited sin. And then there are the more liberal churches that think that much is metaphorical and to be understood more in those terms.
Even though I don't believe in religion, I think it is a narrow view to categorize all christian sects in that one brush.
Peace,
Tammy
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cofty
I stand by my statement as representative of the doctrine of the vast majority of mainstream churches. The moral influence theory is a minority view BTS and would never be permitted to be preached in most bible believing protestant churches.
You appear to have a very insular view of your own personal beliefs. Do I need to post the scriptural evidence for what I posted? I hope not I would need to take some anti-emetic pills to get through the ordeal.
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botchtowersociety
NC, the above entire statement is what Burns said wasn't even close to being true. You chose only the part about us being sinners in need of a savior. But there was a lot more to that which he responded to
Yes, I responded to the statement in its entirety.
These concepts are indeed taught in the churches.
Yes they are, but that was not my response to Cofty. Please go back and read what he said, and how I responded, again.
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botchtowersociety
I stand by my statement as representative of the doctrine of the vast majority of mainstream churches.
It is not representative of all of them. What you have put forward is Calvinist theology, namely, the first of the five points of Calvinism, "total depravity."
Here is what you said:
All religions who call themselves christian begin with the disgraceful premise that we are sinners, enemies of god and worthy only of his wrath, that all our good deeds are filthy rags, and that it took human blood sacrifice to assuage the wrath of god with whom we have an accounting.
Total depravity explained here:
http://calvinistcorner.com/tulip
The moral influence theory is a minority view BTS and would never be permitted to be preached in most bible believing protestant churches.
And there is the insularity I spoke of. You've implicitly conflated "bible believing protestant churches" with "all Christian Churches," between your two statements.
Do I need to post the scriptural evidence for what I posted? I hope not I would need to take some anti-emetic pills to get through the ordeal.
No need. My link above provides the Calvinist proof-texts.
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NewChapter
Calvinist believed that everyone was predestined for heaven or hell with no hope of changing that. They can only hope to alter the degree of their punishment, if hell was their destiny. That is not what Cofty said.
Tec--I agree that there are more liberal churches. But they have actually veered away from the core teachings. I think that's good--understand that---but they branch from a base that all men are sinners deserving of punishment. That unless they accept the human blood sacrifice, they will receive that punishments. That no matter what their good deeds, unless they do the mental or physical aerobics required, they will still received that punishment. That whatever they do on the outside, they will be held accountable for their thoughts. There is an accounting.
Everyone of those beliefs are based on their book, the bible. I know that individuals hold varying beliefs, even within the same religion (they don't operate like JW's), but again all of this is at the core.
If I were just being snarky about religion, then I would come up with some even more vitrioloic crap. But in this case, no matter how nicely it is preached, no matter how kind the spin, this is what it is. The only thing that prevents people from running around screaming in abject terror is the belief that maybe there is an intercessor to hold back that wrath.
NC
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thetrueone
Research shows that the reason humans struggle with emotion to find equitable solutions is pinpointed the region of the brain called the insular cortex, or insula, which is also the seat of emotional reactions.
The fact that the brain has such a robust response to unfairness shows that sensing unfairness is a basic evolved capacity.
The emotional response to unfairness pushes people from extreme inequity and drives them to be fair. This observation shows our basic impulse to be fair isn't a complicated thing that we learn.
It therefore fully illustrates that all humans have morals controlled by the brain and that Christians are entirely wrong to try and claim morals as their own!!!!
But Christians found a way round it!
Government statistics show that christians are vastly over represented in prisons for sexual, violent and fraudulent crime!
The Catholic church is paying millions in compensation for the sex/pedophile crimes of their priests alone!
Christians are vastly over represented in the divorce courts!
Christians invented the concept of sin and then the idea that you could sin, ask forgiveness, get pardoned and start with a clean sheet!
So no surprise that they are so expert at it is it?!
A Christian is a man that feels repentance on Sunday for what he did on Saturday and is going to do on Monday. - Thomas Russell Ybarra -
myelaine
dear thetrueone...
you said: " A Christian is a man that feels repentance on Sunday for what he did on Saturday and is going to do on Monday "...do you think that this kind of behaviour is representitive of a person who is genuinely concerned about his standing with God?...
dear NewChapter...
in your post #5830 you say these things: "Morality is defined differently in different cultures...So what is moral in one society, is not moral in another society. However when judging CHARACTER, one has to look at how an individual follows the rules of their own culture----not an outside culture. Christianity does not do this. It sets a standard and judges people in the far reaches of the world by that standard. So in a culture where premarital sex is approved and expected, they would judge that behavior as "immoral" or a "sin", regardless of what place those people are operating from. It is ridiculous...Christianity elevates such things to an entirely new level. Society has an interest in keeping certain behavior controlled, and should do such"...
We live in an increasingly pluralistic society, most countries allow for many different beliefs without "offending" the authorities. But I contend that with this freedom "from" religion combined with a withdraw from orthodox christianity there will be the ingredients for a perfect storm. An increase of adherents within american society of a much less tolerant religion (muslim population growth rate is 1.8 per year compared to 1.12 for the world population. As of 2011, it is predicted that the world's Muslim population will grow twice as fast as non-Muslims over the next 20 years.~wikipedia). A religion that has the right and will to take up key positions in government to effect change in the dynamics of the country's "cultural norm". Right now in Dearborn Michigan the police authorities cater to the muslim population and refuse christians their right to preach the gospel.( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Smw9QuH1xkA ) Now maybe this means nothing to you at the moment...but consider the possibility that once those intent on changing laws do such a thing...what right DO you think you will have as an atheist to claim any kind of morally superior charactor in comparison to your creepy religious muslim neighbour (who has been afforded his religious rights in a pluralistic society) when he takes himself a 6 year old wife according to HIS CULTURE? You might think this can't happen in america...but, as a matter of fact christians were the majority population in egypt from the 3rd century AD until the muslim invasion in 641 AD. There has been servitude, heavy taxation and persecution ever since. The muslim population is not immune to the burden of religious laws either. Entire societies have been taken over and brought under islamic law. The whole premise of islam is to bring everyone into submission to *sharia law...in order to wipe out what the muslim religious leaders decide is sinful...they are terribly strict and they believe that america is the great satan. OF course, once they get a foot-hold in american politics and succeed in their agenda, islam in america will set the standard and judge people by that standard ...perhaps you see no need to put up any kind of resistance now though because you wont be around then anyway?...What if no one puts up any resitance to this type of situation? (the less fight, the more appealing) what kind of legacy is this?
I think this is a real threat to our "cultural norm"...but if the the christian "agenda" is worrisome to you; I guess you set your own priorities in the final analysis, don't you?
love michelle
*Before the reader begins to study the Quran, he must realise that unlike all other writings, this is a unique book with a supreme author, an eternal message and a universal relevance. Its contents are not confined to a particular theme or style, but contain the foundations for an entire system of life, covering a whole spectrum of issues, which range from specific articles of faith and commandments to general moral teachings, rights, and obligations, crime and punishment, personal and public law, and a host of other private and social concerns. These issues are discussed in a variety of ways, such as direct stipulations, reminders of Allah's favours on His creation, admonitions and rebukes. Stories of past communities are narrated, followed by the lessons to be learned from their actions and subsequent fates. (please note that "actions taken" refers to whether people surrendered with less loss of life or whether they put up resistance and were massacred) http://www.jannah.org/articles/quran.html