The reasoning for this goes back to the 1800s, perhaps even earlier.
A Dictionary of the Bible (1863), by William Smith
A fanatic adherent / proponent of the above theory was Franz
What Scriptural Support Is There For Believing in Second/Greater Fulfillments of Bible Prophecy?
by JWB 47 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Vanderhoven7
Matthew 24, Luke 21 and Mark 13.
These parallel passages have but one fulfillment.
The "great tribulation" was unrepeatedly fulfilled in the first century, culminating with the destruction of Jerusalem.
It's absolutely clear from:
Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Mat 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Mat 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
Mat 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.unrepeatable
confirmation:
Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
Luk 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
Luk 21:23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.This is first century unrepeatable stuff. Jews are still in all nations today; It's not going to happen again.
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Phizzy
I am sure that what Mr Mack says is the case, and thanks for posting TH, but it still does not justify say, taking the prophecy of the madness of the king of babylon in Dan 4, and saying this has a greater fulfillment, why should it ? he went loopy for seven years, fulfilled, end of.
Types and anti-types were beloved by Da Judge, Ratherfraud, as well, he even had one where Rachel's Camels were types of something or other, I forget what, utter nonsense of course.
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bats in the belfry
Vanderhoven7 >> I'd like to pick up on tornapart thoughts:
What about all the scriptures that speak of a 'new heavens' and a 'new earth', Satan being bound for a thousand years, then coming to his end. The end of death.. these things haven't happened yet so they must be future.
Jesus and the prophetic fulfillmants in the first century I do understand - what about the Peter/Revelation scriptures?
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Phizzy
Typical of the 1st Century Apocalyptic genre, lots of non-canonical stuff is similar. None of it is really going to happen of course.
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TimothyT
What a great post Vanderhoven! The very fact that the scripture says that no such tribulation would ever come again is quite something!
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ScenicViewer
Phizzy said,
Neither of those scriptures are justification for the second/Greater Fulfilment idea in any way.
The "by extension" method of exegesis is one that really means "this scripture says what I say it says", which just sums up the WT method.
I agree. That's what I was getting at. Watchtower uses the 'by extension' rationale to support it's own beliefs.
(Maybe you understood what I meant, but I wasn't quitet sure by your response.)
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Sulla
I think this interpretive key is a product of 19th century American New Religions. Scripture has some scattered End-times stuff, for sure, but questions about who Ezekiel's wife represents today is a very late innovation.
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Vanderhoven7
Bats: What about all the scriptures that speak of a 'new heavens' and a 'new earth', Satan being bound for a thousand years, then coming to his end. The end of death.. these things haven't happened yet so they must be future.
Yes, they are.
In Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 Jesus provides answers to more than one question. In Matthew 24:1-35 Jesus deals with His coming (erchomai)in judgment against Jerusalem as predicted in a number of His parables. The disciples were warned not to confuse the two judgments (end of Jerusalem i.e. temple destruction/ with worldwide judgment at the end of the world). He warns the disciples that Jerusalem's judgment would not include the parousia (personal return of Christ) secret or otherwise to rescue them. In contrast, His parousia (second personal coming) at the end of time would not require talk of secret presence, but clear to all worldwide.
Mat 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming (parousia) of the Son of man be.Luk 21:35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
Even the WTS got some of this right:
The following is an excerpt from The Watchtower of May 1, 1999 (p. 11,12)which contains some elements of sound interpretation.
In the years leading up to 66 C.E., Christians would have seen many of the preliminary elements of the composite sign being fulfilled-wars, famines, even an extensive preaching of the good news of the Kingdom. (Acts 11:28; Colossians 1:23) When, though, would the end come? What did Jesus mean when he said: 'This generation [Greek, ge.ne.a'] will not pass away'? Jesus had often called the contemporaneous mass of opposing Jews, including religious leaders, 'a wicked, adulterous generation.' (Matthew 11:16; 12:39, 45; 16:4; 17:17; 23:36) So when, on the Mount of Olives, he again spoke of "this generation," he evidently did not mean the entire race of Jews throughout history; nor did he mean his followers, even though they were "a chosen race." (1 Peter 2:9) Neither was Jesus saying that "this generation" is a period of time.Rather, Jesus had in mind the opposing Jews back then who would experience the fulfillment of the sign he gave. Regarding the reference to "this generation" at Luke 21:32, Professor Joel B. Green notes: "In the Third Gospel, 'this generation' (and related phrases) has regularly signified a category of people who are resistant to the purpose of God. . . . [It refers] to people who stubbornly turn their backs on the divine purpose." *
- The wicked generation of Jewish opposers who could observe the sign being fulfilled would also experience the end. (Matthew 24:6, 13, 14) And that they did! In 70 C.E., the Roman army returned, led by Titus, son of Emperor Vespasian. The suffering of the Jews who were again bottled up in the city is almost beyond belief." Eyewitness Flavius Josephus reports that by the time the Romans demolished the city, about 1,100,000 Jews had died and some 100,000 were taken captive, most of those soon to perish horribly from starvation or in Roman theaters. Truly, the tribulation of 66-70 C.E. was the greatest that Jerusalem and the Jewish system had ever experienced or would ever experience. How different the outcome was for Christians who had heeded Jesus' prophetic warning and had left Jerusalem after the departure of the Roman armies in 66 C.E.!
Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
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Vanderhoven7
Jesus gave clear warning to His disciples as to when to flee the Roman onslaught. The unrepeatable plight of the Jews who didn't heed Jesus' instruction to flee is described in Luke 21: 21-24
The "Times of the Gentiles": to me indicates the duration of time for the Gentiles to tread Jerusalem underfoot...which was 3 1/2 years or 42 months as stipulated in Revelation.
"But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months " Rev.11:2. Exactly the length of the seige and overthrow.
About the disciples second question: What would signal the parousia and when would the world end?
Jesus warned not to expect his parousia, or his second presence during the tribulation associated with 70 AD Don't believe it. The parousia will be dramatic, worldwide & no secret. Mt.24:23-27 Notice how the material in Mt. 24: 36-44 , which deals solely with the parousia is in stark contrast with the material in verses 1 - 36.
Matt 24:1-35 Matt 24: 36 - end
__________ __________________Local, Jerusalem,Judea,Temple Worldwide: Lu.21:35
Abnormal Times: calamities Normal Times: Marrying, working in fields etc.
Specific signs precede No Signs Given
Precise Timing Anticipated Lu.24:33 Anticipation Impossible 24:44