What Scriptural Support Is There For Believing in Second/Greater Fulfillments of Bible Prophecy? (page 4)

cyberjesus

none... research more background on the book you are reading first.... real writter, real date it was written..etc etc

Vanderhoven7

DodPatch: << I do not think there is anything in the Bible that gives justification for a 2nd fulfillment.>>

I agree fully.

<<So why, Vanderhoven, do you believe in a second fulfillment? Why not accept the more obvious fact that they were wrong? Will it take another 2000 years to get the point? To me, there is a limit to credibility - except in religion of course. :-))>>

Actually, as i see it, there is only one fulfillment. Matthew 24:1-35 was completely fulfilled by A.D. 70. Jesus separated this first century coming ( erchomai) judgment on Jerusalem from His personal coming for world judgment (parousia), discussed from verse 36 on, for which there would be no signs or possibility of anticipation. Not dual fulfillment....Two different judgments; one that would apply to his own generation, and one He had no clue as to which generation it would apply.

Vanderhoven7

DogPatch:exegetical and interpretive/historical examination, ALL Christians appeared to believe the words of Jesus and Paul signalling the imminent end of life as we know it by Armageddon.

Excellent article Randy. It's a keeper.

Vanderhoven7

ScenicViewer: Thanks. I owe my understanding of Matthew 24 to Marcellus Kik and Albert Barnes.

JWB

Thanks for your input everybody.

I'm afraid I'm not interested in how scholars have interpreted Daniel 4. What is important here is what "the One who is the Revealer of secrets" (Daniel 2:29; NWT) [ie God] reveals by way of interpretation. It is not for scholars to inject their own views, but rather to read the text and see what is plainly stated. What did the Revealer reveal to Daniel as to the interpretation? "This is the interpretation, O king, and the decree of the Most High is that which must befall my lord the king" (Daniel 4:24).

This was not a dream about the Messianic kingdom, because verse 26 shows that the rootstock of the tree had to do with Nebuchadnezzar's kingdom. The reason for seven years of humiliation was to teach the king a lesson in humility because of his pride (verses 29, 37). He was also to suffer such humiliation "until [he knew] that the Most High is Ruler in the kingdom of mankind, and that to the one whom he wants to he gives it" (verse 25).

Although it may be tempting to take certain parts which seem like they refer to Jesus, such as "a twig out of the stump of Jesse" (Isaiah 11:1) [rootstock], and "he was despised, and we held him of no account" (Isaiah 53:3) [lowliest of mankind], the fact of the matter is that Daniel's interpretation was quite specific as to whom it applied.

Acluetofindtheuser

Isaiah 13:12-13

What does this mean to you?

PaintedToeNail

Vanderhoven7-Thank you for such interesting information. We have all been puzzled and terrorized by these interpretations, you have sorted them out and made sense of them.

Larsinger58

VANDERHOVEN: Luke clearly dates the destruction of Jerusalem before the signs of the times of the end. So you missed a critical reference. This one-time tribulation event, otherwise in the Bible, occurs in connection with end times and is a reference to the Holocaust. For first off, note that Luke never mentions Daniel or any "great tribulation"; those are only in Matthew and Mark ard are part of the signs of the "parousia" of Christ, meaning leading up to the second coming. Here is the verse in Luke which dates the fall of Jerusalem separately and before the signs of the last days:

After describing some of the same end-time events in verse 9-11, then Luke 12 clearly says, "But before all these things..." thus introducing some events that will occur before these end-time events. Included in those things that occur before, of course, is the fall of Jerusalem.

Now remember, chronology gives us the precise year of the second coming based on the fall of Jerusalem. There is confusion from the popular records regarding this period, but these records come from the Persian and later periods and thus are presumed from the beginning to be revisions. Even so, there is only an 82-year gap for the potential dates for the fall of Jerusalem, which are 607 BCE, 587 BCE and 529 BCE which gives us three choices, all in the 20th Century CE, which are 1914, 1934 and 1992. So in no way does the fall of Jerusalem in 70 CE come close to when the end-time events must occur.

But all those dates being past events, the "great tribulation" should have occurred by now, right? After all, it must occur before the second coming! Matthew 24:29 says, "Immediately after the tribulation of those days... the sign of the son of man will appear in heaven..." So what was that one-time event that happens to the Jews? It was the Holocaust, of course.

LS

Larsinger58

None of the comments so far have dealt with the direct question of the double fulfillment. For JWs the double fulfillment is generic to making the application of the Biblical formula found in Ezekiel about "a day for a year." So that means you have one fulfillment for a literal day and another for years.

In the case of the "7 times" for instance, where Nebuchadnezzar II would be off his throne for "7 times" or 2520 days. That amounts to seven literal years. When you apply the "day for a year formula" that means the presence of a physical representative king on the planet would be absent for 2520 years. So was that fulfilled? Yes.

If you use the true date for the fall of Jerusalem, which is 529 BCE, based on the VAT4956 dating year 37 to 511 BCE, then the 2nd coming should have occurred in 1992. The second coming must occur 45 years after the end of the 1290 days, which ends the "gentile times" which ended on November 30, 1947. If 1947 ends the 1290 days, then the messiah should arrive to fulfill the "1335 days" 45 years later, thus in 1992.

1290 + 45 = 1335

1947 + 45 = 1992

So you have coordination between the VAT4956 which dates year 19 to 529 BCE and the modern event of the end of the Jewish exile and the end of the 1290 days ending in 1947, both pointing to the second coming during the same year, 1992. Of course, I was an eyewitness to that event so I can confirm the date of the second coming to December 25-26, 1992.

As they say, "the proof is in the pudding" and so double fulfillments have occurred

At any rate the basic foundation of the double fulfillment application is squarely seated in the "day for a year" formula.

LS

Vanderhoven7

Lars:

<<After describing some of the same end-time events in verse 9-11, then Luke 12 clearly says, "But before all these things..." thus introducing some events that will occur before these end-time events. Included in those things that occur before, of course, is the fall of Jerusalem. >>

OK. In context:

Luk 21:6 As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
Luk 21:7 And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?
Luk 21:8 And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.
Luk 21:9 But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by.
Luk 21:10 Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:
Luk 21:11 And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.
Luk 21:12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.
Luk 21:13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony.
Luk 21:14 Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:
Luk 21:15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.
Luk 21:16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.
Luk 21:17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.
Luk 21:18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish.
Luk 21:19 In your patience possess ye your souls.
Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

I don't see a problem. Persecution would be the lot of the faithful long before Jerusalem would be destroyed...because, of course, they preached Christ faithfully. Read the book of Acts. Remember the martyrs, those removed from synagogues, brought before the Sanhedrin, before Felix etc. Everything occurred in the exact order Christ warned, before any of the warning signs of approaching judgment manifested.

BTW, verse 18 and 19 were meant to encourage the survivors of this persecution to be patient until the final sign was in evidence (i.e. the desolating pagan armies of Rome surrounding Jerusalem), because if they endured to the end, they would (be saved) escape the death and destruction about to be wrought by the Roman armies. Not even a hair on their heads would perish.

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 are parallel passages that deal with the same issues and follow the exact same sequence of events.

What Scriptural Support Is There For Believing in Second/Greater Fulfillments of Bible Prophecy?

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