Vanderhoven7 >> Thank you for your swift research.
So, no invisible parousia of Jesus. Just a coming and setting things straight. Period.
The rest of it, being type / antitype explanations of a "great tribulation" before the end comes, as propagated by the WTBTS, is just 'fluff' for the masses. Great WT'99 find - I bookmarked it for further examination of mine.
What Scriptural Support Is There For Believing in Second/Greater Fulfillments of Bible Prophecy?
by JWB 47 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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bats in the belfry
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Vanderhoven7
In case someone doesn't get where I'm coming from, let me summarize Matthew 24:1-44 as I understand it:
Jesus has just left the temple for the last time after pronouncing it desolate while predicting great tribulation/vengeance on the then contemporary generation esp. the religious leaders (Mt.23:36). Then He moves to the Mount of Olives with His disciples and tells them that the temple would be utterly destroyed.
His disciples are shocked and ask 1. when this would happen and 2. what would signal his visitation and the end of the age.
As I see it, Jesus answers the first question in verses 1 -34
In verses. 5-14 he tells them that difficult times were ahead for them.
False “messiahs” would arise before Jerusalem's destruction
There would be numerous military encounters.
Famines and earthquakes would occur.
There would be intense persecution of believers.
Some would “stumble,” and depart from the faith.
False prophets would be prevalent.
There would be decreasing spirituality on the part of some saints.
Those who endured and remained alive would be delivered from the onslaught.
The gospel would be published far and wide before Jerusalem's fall.
Then in verses 15 - 35 He identifies the sign that would alert them to His coming ( erchomai) to take vengeance u pon Jerusalem' and it's temple and provides the course of action they should take:
He tells them: As soon as you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies know its desolation is near. There will be no time to waste, even to get extra clothing. It will be unfortunate for pregnant and nursing mothers; pray that your flight from the city and Judaean villages will not be impeded by winter conditions or on a Sabbath day when the city gates are locked and traveling distance limited. Escape quickly to the hills beyond Judaea because unparallelled and unrepeatable tribulation for Jerusalem and its inhabitants is about to occur. Don't believe the false prophets who tell you that the Messiah is secretly present somewhere, to deliver you; no because my second presence will be evident worldwide.
Immediately, swiftly after the siege and suffering brought about by it; the onslaught and the destruction of the temple and city will occur orchestrated by the Son of man, from heaven. Many shall fall by the sword and those that survive will be shipped off as slaves to gentile lands. Be happy that as a result, because you will be spared destruction and Jewish restraints and persecution will be shattered and the gospel of the kingdom will have free course throughout the world. You are to know the exact timing and when all this is about to take place. All these things will happen within this generation.
Then, as I see it, Jesus answers the second question from verse 36-44
But of that day, (not days) the day of my parousia, knows no man. There will be no signs to warn people; it will come as a total surprise as did the flood in Noah's day. People will be going about there business as usual, it will be normal times; people will be marrying and giving in marriage, working at their jobs There will be no need to flee this event. Two men will be working in the field; one taken, one left behind; two women working at the mill, one taken, one left behind. Be ready at all times since the Son of Man will come when you least expect it. And it will come as a snare upon the whole earth, not just Jerusalem and Judea.
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Vidqun
I believe Origen (185-254 CE) had a unique way of interpreting things. He saw in all Scripture a literal, moral, and spiritual side. His methods were not that popular. Perhaps he started with the primary and secondary fulfillment of prophecy?
Here's a few study notes I made a while back in connection with Daniel's prophecies to make sense out of the whole thing.
Prophetic interpretation, or exegesis, is subjective to an extreme degree. To lessen the subjective impact, John J. Collins describes Daniel’s prophecy as ex eventu, i.e., “written after the fact.”[1] So, in order to counteract subjectivity, one needs to add historical reality to the mix. In so doing, one strengthens the objective element.
Historical reality : This is the sum of present and past realities, based on undisputed, historical fact.
Eisegesis : The interpretation of a text (as of the Bible) by reading into it one’s own ideas (Webster). This is a criticism that the prophetic interpreter has to live with. However, one should keep in mind that many an exegete, ancient and modern, would endeavour to apply prophetic interpretation to his own time. Those that believe the Bible to be God’s Word, looks to the prophecies for guidance, a natural response to life’s challenges.
E.g., in the straits of the times the breakaway Essenes of Qumran, responsible for the DSS collection, would explain the Scriptures in the light of current events. Later R. Akiba, would give his blessing to Simon Bar Kochba, viewing him as the messianic king, thus triggering the Bar Kochba Revolt (132-135 CE).[2]
Josephus inferred that the Medes and Persians would be replaced by “another king from the west,” i.e., Alexander the Great. A fourth kingdom will follow “like iron and will have dominion forever because of it’s iron nature.” There can be no doubt that Josephus identified it as Rome.[3]
Jerome also viewed the fourth kingdom as Rome. The feet of iron and clay he specifically applied to his day (Jerome, Commentary on the Book of Daniel, translated by Gleason L. Archer, Jr., on Dan. 2:40; 7:7).
Martin Luther affirmed that the end of days was at hand. He recognized a dual reference to Antiochus and the Antichrist in Dan. 8 and 11, and a direct reference to the Antichrist (the Pope) in Dan. 11:36-45.[4]
Sir Isaac Newton viewed the final King of the North as the Empire of the Turks and the last King of the South as the Empire of the Saracens ( Isaac Newton, Observations upon the prophecies of Daniel, and the Apocalypse of John, p. 155 (published by M. Olckers) .
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In the history of prophetic interpretation, it has been established that a prophecy often has a primary as well as secondary fulfillment. This is most clearly demonstrated by the composite sign of Jesus’ end time prophecy, dealing with the conclusion of the Jewish system, yet corresponding to his parousia at the conclusion of the present system (cf. Matt. 24, 25; Mark 13; Luk. 21). The reader should therefore be the sole arbiter in the light of the evidence. And yes, eventually and inevitably, time itself have the last word, whether an interpretation is to stand or to fall.
[1] John J. Collins, A Commentary on the Book of Daniel, Hermeneia-series, p. 60.
[2] Akiba ben Joseph. (2011). Encyclopædia Britannica. E ncyclopædia Britannica Ultimate Reference Suite. Chicago: Encyclopædia Britannica.
[3] John J. Collins, A Commentary on the Book of Daniel, Hermeneia-series, p. 85.
[4] Ibid., p. 119.
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Vanderhoven7
Some have great trouble associating the apocalyptic language of verses 29 on with AD 70.
I hope this helps:
29. IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE
DAYS SHALL THE SUN B E DARKENED, AND THE MOON
NOT GIVE HER LIGHT, AND THE STARS SHALL FALL
FROM HEAVEN, AND THE POWERS OF THE HEAVENS
SHALL BE SHAKEN:Most people assume the vivid language must describe the end of
the world. But notice that this apocalyptic language is preceded
by the word "IMMEDIATELY". It was immediately after the
tribulation of those days that the sun would be darkened etc. The
Jewish nation was about to be darkened; virtually obliterated.
God, in His righteous wrath was removing the Jewish nation from
His heavens. As the moon, Judaism would no longer reflect the
Light of God; its stars, the prophets and Fathers would no longer
shine for Israel of the flesh.QUESTION: Can we be justified in stating that the sun, moon and
stars are figurative of Judaism and its glories?WHEN WE LET SCRIPTURE INTERPRET SCRIPTURE, we
find the same language in the OT depicting the destruction of
Babylon , Egypt, Tyre and Idumea.Is.13:9, 10 is a prediction of God's judgment on Babylon
"Behold the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and
and fierce anger to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the
sinners thereof out of it. For the stars of heaven and the
constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be
darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light
to shine.If the Holy Spirit speaking through the prophet Isaiah uses such
figurative language to describe the downfall of a heathen nation
like Babylon, how much more would not such language be used to
describe the downfall of the chosen nation of Israel?Regarding the destruction of the insignificant nation of
Idumea, Isaiah writes:Is.34:4,5 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the
heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll...
For my sword shall be bathed in heaven; behold it shall come
down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to
judgment.If the Holy Spirit speaking through the prophet Isaiah uses such
figurative language to describe the downfall of such an
insignificant nation as Idumea, how much more would not such
language be used to describe the downfall of the chosen nation of
Israel?Ez.32:2, 7,8 Ezekiel's prediction of God's judgment on Egypt
incorporates similar vivid language."Son of man, take up a lamentation for Pharaoh king of
Egypt... And when I shall put thee out, I will cover the heaven, and
I will make the stars thereof dark; I will cover the sun with a
cloud, and the moon shall not give her light. All the bright
lights of heaven will I make dark over thee, and set darkness
upon thy land, saith the Lord God.If the Holy Spirit speaking through the prophet Ezekiel uses such
figurative language to describe the downfall of a heathen nation
like Egypt, how much more would not such language be used to
describe the downfall of the chosen nation of Israel?
Acts 32:16-21 Is.19:1 Ps.97:2,3 Mat.26:64OF COURSE THIS LANGUAGE CAN AND DOES APPLY TO ISRAEL.
Dan.8:10-11, speaking of the conquest of Rome over Israel, says:
And it (one horn) waxed great, even to the host of heaven;
and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground,
and stamped on them. Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince
of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the
place of the sanctuary cast down.(See also Jer.4:26 Mt.26:64 Mat.16:28)
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ScenicViewer
@ Vanderhoven7
I have to say, I enjoy reading your take on Mt 24. It makes sense, and is an excellent alternative to the Watchtower point of view. Thanks for posting that.
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JWB
I'm happy that this thread has proved of interest! However, it was not my intention to address the topic of when certain prophecies (or parts thereof) happened, just simply to ask for scriptural evidence for the belief in second/greater fulfillments. Maybe another thread could be started on the timing of prophecies?
Below is a copy of an article I wrote for a blog some time ago, that looks briefly at a couple of 'second fulfillments'. -
JWB
"BEYOND THE THINGS THAT ARE WRITTEN"
Now, brothers, these things I have transferred so as to apply to myself and Apollos for your good, that in our case you may learn the [rule]: "Do not go beyond the things that are written," in order that you may not be puffed up individually in favor of the one against the other. [1 Corinthians 4:6]
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[1] An Ancient Prophetic Dream
One of those "sacred secrets" is contained in the Bible book of Daniel. That book provides essentials for determining the time for the giving of royal authority to God’s appointed king. In the fourth chapter of that book you will find narrated a divinely sent dream of King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon. What was the intent or purpose of this dream and its fulfillment? The record states:
"That people living may know that the Most High is Ruler in the kingdom of mankind and that to the one whom he wants to, he gives it and he sets up over it even the lowliest one of mankind."--Daniel 4:17.
The content of the dream was basically this: An immense tree was seen being chopped down at the command of a "holy one," an angel. The stump of the tree was then banded to prevent it from sprouting. It was to remain thus banded amid the "grass of the field" for "seven times."--Daniel 4:13-16.
What was the meaning of this dream? The inspired explanation of the prophet Daniel to Nebuchadnezzar was:
"The tree that you beheld, . . . it is you, O king, because you have grown great and become strong, and your grandeur has grown great and reached to the heavens, and your rulership to the extremity of the earth.
"And because the king beheld a watcher, even a holy one, coming down from the heavens, who was also saying: 'Chop the tree down, and ruin it. However, leave its rootstock itself in the earth, but with a banding of iron and of copper, among the grass of the field, and with the dew of the heavens let it become wet, and with the beasts of the field let its portion be until seven times themselves pass over it,' this is the interpretation, O king, and the decree of the Most High is that which must befall my lord the king. And you they will be driving away from men, and with the beasts of the field your dwelling will come to be, and the vegetation is what they will give even to you to eat just like bulls; and with the dew of the heavens you yourself will be getting wet, and seven times themselves will pass over you, until you know that the Most High is Ruler in the kingdom of mankind, and that to the one whom he wants to he gives it.
"And because they said to leave the rootstock of the tree, your kingdom will be sure to you after you know that the heavens are ruling."--Daniel 4:20-26.
So this dream had an initial fulfillment upon King Nebuchadnezzar. For "seven times," or seven literal years, Nebuchadnezzar was insane. His kingdom, however, was held secure for him so that, upon regaining soundness of mind, he again assumed his royal office.--Daniel 4:29-37.
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[2] Good News of the Kingdom Preached in All the Inhabited Earth
About 60-61 C.E., Paul reported in his letter to the Colossians that the good news was "bearing fruit and increasing in all the world" and had been "preached in all creation that is under heaven." (Col. 1:5, 6, 23) The early Christians had been obedient to the Word, and holy spirit had empowered them to accomplish a worldwide preaching work before the end of the Jewish system of things in 70 C.E. A seemingly impossible task had been completed. How encouraging it was for those faithful Christians workers to hear reports of what was being accomplished!
In like manner, Jehovah's modern-day organization endeavors to keep precise records of the work being done in fulfillment of Matthew 24:14, which says: "This good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come." As dedicated servants of God, we have an urgent work to do...
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NOTES:
* All literature extracts and Bible quotations are from sources published by the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society (WTB&TS).
** All underlining and bold are my own, introduced in order to emphasize certain parts of the text. Underlining shows Scriptural revelation, whereas bold shows where the WTB&TS points to extensions of Scripture.
[1] This extract is from the book "Is This Life All There Is?" (1974), Chapter 18. The chapter goes on to give the prophecy an extra or 'greater' fulfillment. It also claims "the evidence is that these 'seven times' amounted to 2,520 days, that is, seven prophetic years of 360 days each." By taking 607 BCE, which the WTB&TS regards as the true date of the first destruction of Jerusalem, and adding 2,520 years (days converted to years) to that date, 1914 CE comes into focus as the year in which Jesus Christ began his invisible presence as King over the earth.
[2] This extract is from page 84 of the book "Organized To Do Jehovah's Will". Interestingly, Volume 4 of the 1984 Revised Large Print edition of the "New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures" makes reference to Matthew 24:14 in connection with Colossians 1:23.
The WTB&TS gives credence to second or 'greater' fulfillments of prophecy, 'prophetic dramas', and 'antitypes'. These theological devices have been employed to make certain passages of the Bible appear to: (a) refer to the modern age in general, and (b) refer to the organization of Jehovah's Witnesses in particular. The fact that Charles Taze Russell was initially influenced by the Adventist movement may have been responsible for laying the foundation for this type of reasoning. -
Dogpatch
Good thread.
Phizzy said,
The "by extension" method of exegesis is one that really means "this scripture says what I say it says", which just sums up the WT method.
I do not think there is anything in the Bible that gives justification for a 2nd fulfillment.
This is especially an American phenomena, because kooky bookwriters like Hal Lindsey ("The Late Great Planet Earth") have a great deal of influence on churchgoers - the more uneducated they are in the roots of the Bible, the more powerful the preachers can be. Then they write their corny books and get their own TV stations, giving the impression that THEY are the real spokesmen of God. Then branches (sects) of churches appear, some leading to denominations and new movements. Some are bowel movements, others can be quite positive.
A church is simply an extended family. We all need families. A CULT is an extended family GONE BAD. That's all you need to define this whole charade. Everyone seems to think of defining cults as dependent on their doctrines. No, it is their behavior or misbehavior in modern parlance. We are still primally-driven creatures, no matter how hard we try to escape. Most of the world's religions are simply people trying to apologize to their god for their randy primal side. (Yet the god usually has a greater record of slaughter and injustice by common sense!)
Orange County, Calif. and most of Texas are the seedbed of this nonsense. "Name-it-Claim-it" was their last big joke. Now it seems all politics.
Not long before I became a JW, I lived in Orange County which is the capital of evangelical stupidity in a historical, interpretive context. Lindsey's book and reading ALL of Ellen G. White's tomes led my way to becoming a JW. I had been raised a Baptist, but was more of a naturalist. I always believed in evolution. Animals were my equal and to be respected.
People listen to these leaders/pastors and believe in them because they are believed in by millions. What could be a safer bet? Buying the Brooklyn Bridge?
Hey, I used to do programs for months for Trinity Broadcasting Network in Irvine, Calif. Jan Crouch even read my two theological tomes and let me in on Saturday nights instead of Walter Martin.
I KNOW Orange County, the Orange Curtain as they call it. No sin gets in or out. God is the mayor.
My mother was one of Robert Schuller's secretaries and editors when he was getting ready to publish his first book. He later built the Crystal Cathedral on the same property. It was the first drive-in church in the world. Speakers in your car window and all. :-))
One day I took in the visual absurdity of all this, and seeing a guy in the car in front of me picking his nose boogers was the last straw. No more church for me. I was 13.
Motorcycles and horses were now my world.
My motto: Love people more and believe them less.
The mind can be a dangerous thing.
Vanderhoven7 says,
These parallel passages have but one fulfillment.
The "great tribulation" was unrepeatedly fulfilled in the first century, culminating with the destruction of Jerusalem.
It's absolutely clear from:
Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Mat 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Mat 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
Mat 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.unrepeatable
confirmation:
Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
Luk 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
Luk 21:23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.This is first century unrepeatable stuff. Jews are still in all nations today; It's not going to happen again.
Excellent. From a purely exegetical and interpretive/historical examination, ALL Christians appeared to believe the words of Jesus and Paul signalling the imminent end of life as we know it by Armageddon. Especially Jesus' prophecies. They had no ridiculous expectation of "these last days" being over 2000 years long, when the world is in a better state health and economic-wise than it has EVER been according to written records.
Today we live longer, there is less injustice, dictators are almost laughed out of existence, and even 1000 years-backward Muslim isolated spots are catching up quickly to a better life. They may live in a tent with no electricity, but they have generators, TVs, and above all, cell phones. The gap is closing quickly (thank God). We are going to have to work together or see mass genocide or annihilation by our own weapons.
So why, Vanderhoven, do you believe in a second fulfillment? Why not accept the more obvious fact that they were wrong? Will it take another 2000 years to get the point?
To me, there is a limit to credibility - except in religion of course. :-))
Not forgetting transhuman68:
It’s all Paul’s fault. He was the first person to troll the Hebrew Scriptures looking for references that he could apply to Christ. Once he started finding “prophecies” it was open slather, and everything could be found to have two fulfilments if you wanted to imagine it. And the Bible is open-ended, with Revelation projecting far into the future to a theoretical ‘end of the world’. So now every damn thing in the Bible- trees, seeds, lambs, snakes, statues- the whole lot- can be taken as having some greater meaning in the future.
Preach it, brother! That's what started the Watchtower. :-))
Phizzy had another brain fart:
Typical of the 1st Century Apocalyptic genre, lots of non-canonical stuff is similar
If you read ANY of the more liberal writings around 400 BC to 200 AD, Armageddon was right around the corner! Just pick your sect of Christians back then, of which there were many. As many as there were egotistical preachers. I'm glad Jesus was wrong, and I'm glad all of the other testosterone-driven writers were wrong.
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Vidqun
JWB, don’t know whether this is what you had in mind. Here’s some of the pros and the cons, specifically dealing with Dan. 4. Take your pick:
JWs View:
Last, but not least, one should carefully examine the context of the verses. E.g., most scholars seem to ignore Daniel’s apocalyptic worldview (German translation: Weltanschauung). Daniel was intensely occupied with the outworking of God’s purpose in relation to the military and political activities of mankind. It should also be possible then to integrate these prophecies with other Biblical prophecies.
Nebuchadnezzar has a second dream (vv. 10-17). Again Daniel has to interpret (vv. 20-27). The dream pictures an unfortunate episode in the life of the king (vv. 28-37). It would have remained a footnote in history had it not been for three important factors:
1) Trees in the Bible often symbolize individuals, kings or rulership (cf. Ps. 1:3; Jer. 17:8; Dan. 4:10-26), especially in the book of Ezekiel (cf. Ezek. 31:3; also 17:22; 19:10).
2) The sentence: “ the Most High is Ruler in the kingdom of mankind, and that to the one whom he wants to he gives it” [Cursive script added.] (Dan. 4:17, 25). A related text, concerning Zedekiah, the last Israelite king, is coached in similar language: “As for this, also, it will certainly become no [one’s] until he comes who has the legal right, and I must give [it] to him.” [Cursive script added.] (cf. Ez. 21:27b).
3) JWs biblical view: Jerusalem destroyed in 607 BCE. The “seven times” (7 times x 360 = 2520 years) based on year-day calculation (cf. Num. 13:34; Ez. 4:4-6). The fulfillment of the “appointed times of the nations” or “Gentile times” in 1914 CE (see also Ps. 2:2, 6; 110:1, 2; Dan. 4:16, 25; 7:13, 14; cf. Luk. 21:24).
Critics opposing above view assert:
1) The book of Daniel was written by a Maccabean Jew during the Hellenistic period.
2) Dan. 4 is not symbolic. It concerns Nebuchadnezzar alone.
3) Days in biblical prophecy do not present years.
4) It cannot be proved that a “prophetic year” has 360 days.
5) According to secular chronology, Jerusalem was destroyed in 587/586 BCE.
6) Christ’s kingdom was established in 30 CE.
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james_woods
This is a very important thread on a very important subject.
This secondary fulfillment nonsense has led the WTBTS down many false-prophetic paths.
