What Scriptural Support Is There For Believing in Second/Greater Fulfillments of Bible Prophecy?

by JWB 47 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

Vanderhoven7

Painted Toe Nail,
Thank you for your encouragment. JWs like to redefine terms so they can put their spin on scripture. In terms of the Olivet discourse, they redefine "Jerusalem" and "Generation" to suit their own ends. The real issue is:
Which generation was Christ referring to in Matthew 24:34?
The Greek word “ genea” (pronounced ghen-eh-ah') appears thirteen times in Matthew's gospel. Four times it is used to delineate “one set of parents to the next”. Ignoring Matthew 24:34 for the moment, in every other appearance, including 6 of the instances Matthew places the definite article “this” (houtos) before “generation”, “this generation” ( houtos genea), in context, clearly cover the same group of people -i.e. “Christ's contemporaries”
Mt 11:16 But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places, who call out to the other children, (the persons then living contemporary with Christ)
Mt 12:41 The men of Nineveh will stand up with this generation at the judgment, and will condemn it because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and behold, something greater than Jonah is here.
(the persons then living contemporary with Christ)
Mt 12:42 "The Queen of the South will rise up with this generation at the judgment and will condemn it, because she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and behold, something greater than Solomon is here.(the persons then living contemporary with Christ).
Mt 12:45 "Then it goes and takes along with it seven other spirits more wicked than itself.... That is the way it will also be with this evil generation." (the persons then living contemporary with Christ)
Mt 17:17 And Jesus answered and said, "You unbelieving and perverted generation, how long shall I be with you? How long shall I put up with you? ..."(the persons then living contemporary with Christ)
Mt 23:36 "Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.
Reading Mt.23:36 in context again shows " the persons then living contemporary with Christ are being referred to:
29. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye build the sepulchres of the prophets, and garnish the tombs of the righteous, 30 and say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we should not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. 31 Wherefore ye witness to yourselves, that ye are sons of them that slew the prophets. 32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. :33 Ye serpents, ye offspring of vipers, how shall ye escape the judgment of Gehenna? 34 Therefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: some of them shall ye kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city: 35 that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of Abel the righteous unto the blood of Zachariah son of Barachiah, whom ye slew between the sanctuary and the altar. 36Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.(the persons then living contemporary with Christ)
Mt 24:34
"Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.

Vanderhoven7

Here is something on the WT "generation" I picked up online:

"Truly I say to you that this generation will by no means pass away until all these things occur. " (Matthew 24:34 NWT)

How long is a Generation?

Before 1952 a Generation was 40 years.

Why is 1952 the cut off time when the organization got "new light" from God?

The destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD happened 37 years after Jesus' death. 1914 + 37 = 1951
"By keeping the people ignorant they led them into having Jesus killed on a torture stake at Calvary. Thirty-seven years later this willfully cultivated ignorance led to its fatal consequences, the destruction of the city of Jerusalem with an enormous loss of human lives, just as Jesus had predicted, and the breaking up of the Jewish nation till this day. And now in this "time of the end" the revived nation of Israel with capital at the modern city of Jerusalem chooses to go on in the steps of its forefathers . . ." (Watchtower, Sept. 1 1950 p 277; see also Nov. 1 1950 p 407)
"The length of time is indicated by him when he said, "Truly I say to you that this generation will by no means pass away until all these things occur." (Matt. 24:34) The actual meaning of these words is, beyondquestion, that which takes a "generation" in the ordinary sense, as at Mark 8:12 and Acts 13:36, or for those who are living at the given period." (Watchtower, July 1, 1951, p. 404)
"Counting from the end of the "appointed times of the nations" in 1914, we are 37 years into the "time of the end" of this world. (Luke 21:24, Dan. 12:4) During these crucial years Jehovah's witnesses have sought shelter and strength in him, and they can confess for themselves that he is a "well-proved help in trouble". If it were not for this, they would not be here today nor increasing in numbers. But we are entering the most serious and trialsome years of this "time of the end". The final conflict of Armageddon draws near." (Watchtower, Feb 15, 1951 p 179)
"WHEREAS the "appointed times of the nations" ended in 1914, it is now 37 years that we have been in the "time of the end" of Satan's world." (Watchtower, April 1 1951 p 214)

Generation revised in 1952 to equal 70-80 years

The year after 1951, the organization was forced to revise its definition. God came through just in time and gave them "new light"!
"Webster's unabridged dictionary gives, in part, this definition of generation: "The average lifetime of man, or the ordinary period of time at which one rank follows another, or father is succeeded by child; an age. A generation is usually taken to be about 33 years." But the Bible is not so specific. It gives no number of years for a generation. And in Matthew 24:34, Mark 13:30 and Luke 21:32, the texts mentioning the generation the question refers to, we are not to take generation as meaning the average time for one generation to be succeeded by the next, as Webster's does in its 33-year approximation; but rather more like Webster's first-quoted definition, "the average lifetime of man." Three or even four generations may be living at the same time, their lives overlapping. (Ps. 78:4; 145:4) Before the Noachian flood the life span was hundreds of years. Down through the centuries since, it has varied, and even now is different in different countries. The Bible does speak of a man's days as being threescore and ten or fourscore years; but it assigns no specific number of years to a generation. - Ps. 90:10." (Watchtower, Sept. 1 1952 pp 542-543)
"To try to say how many years before its end would be speculative. The texts merely set a limit that is sufficiently definite for all present practical purposes. Some persons living A.D. 1914 when the series of foretold events began will also be living when the series ends with Armageddon. All the events will come within the span of a generation. There are hundreds of millions of persons living now that were living in 1914, and many millions of these persons could yet live a score or more years. Just when the lives of the majority of them will be cut short by Armageddon we cannot say." (Watchtower, Sept. 1 1952 pp 542-543)
The Creator's promise: "...the Creator'spromise of a new order of lasting peace and true security withinourgeneration." (Awake! January 8, 1975)

1988: a generation is 75 years!

(1914 + 75 = 1989)
"J. A. Bengel states in his New Testament Word Studies: "The Hebrews . . . reckon seventy-five years as one generation, and the words, shall not pass away, intimate that the greater part of that generation [of Jesus' day] indeed, but not the whole of it, should have passed away before all should be fulfilled."" (Watchtower April 8, 1988 p14; [It was not a coincidence that this book had not been quoted by the Watchtower Society earlier, and would not be quoted after 1989 had passed!])
"It is not reasonable to expect that present favorable conditions for preaching the good news will continue indefinitely. Besides, did not Jesus say that this generation will not pass away until all things are fulfilled? A generation, according to Psalm 90:10, is fromseventytoeightyyears. The generation that witnessed the end of the Gentile Times in 1914 does nothavemanymoreyears left." (Watchtower Dec 1, 1968, p715)
"From a purely human viewpoint, it could appear that these developments could hardly take place before the generation of 1914 disappears from the scene. But fulfillment of all the foretold events affecting the generation of 1914 does not depend on comparatively slow human action. Jehovah's prophetic word through Christ Jesus is: "This generation [of 1914] will by no means pass away until all things occur." (Luke 21:32) And Jehovah, who is the source of inspired and unfailing prophecy, will bring about the fulfillment of his Son's words in a relatively short time." (Watchtower, May 15, 1984 p6, bracketed "[of 1914]" in the original)

Watchtower President begins to hedge in 1991:

"But we are as strong for it as we ever were, and we are appreciating it all the more the longer we have to wait for it. It is something worth waiting for, even if it required a million years." (Watchtower Dec 15 1991 p11; late president, Fred Franz)

Generation revised in 1995 (1914 + 80 = 1994)

The year after 1994 (the outward limit of the 80 generation position , the organization was forced to revise its definition. Again, God came through just in time and gave them "new light"! The Watchtower organization has the nerve to blame all misunderstandings on the Witness on the street. Witnesses, blindly following the organization, accept the blame for their "prophets" blunders! What you see below is an organization that has run out of options. They are literally forced into this position. There are no known definitions of "generation" left to use.
"Eager to see the end of this evil system, Jehovah's people have at times speculated about the time when the "great tribulation" would break out, even tying this to calculations of what is the lifetime of a generation since 1914. However, we bring a heart of wisdom in, not by speculating about how many years or days makeup a generation, but by thinking about how we "count our days" in bringing joyful praise to Jehovah." (Watchtower Nov 1, 1995 p18)
"Does our more precise viewpoint on "this generation" mean that Armageddon is further away than we had thought? Not at all! Though we at no time have known the "day and hour," Jehovah God has always known it, and he does not change." (Watchtower Nov 1, 1995 p20)
"Therefore, in the final fulfilment of Jesus' prophecy today, "this generation" apparently refers to the peoples of earth who see the sign of Christ's presence but fail to mend their ways." (Watchtower Nov 1, 1995 p19)

AWAKE! Magazine says it all!

Awake announces the "death wake" for the generation doctrine
In the Awake! magazine of November 8th 1995 the masthead of the magazine was significantly changed. This single change is perhaps the most significant and obvious. They have now totally rejected the original 1914 generation doctrine. Of course, most witnesses on the street, are not even aware of this yet because they are forbidden to read "apostate" material. What is apostate about this material? Did it not reveal truth to YOU??? Had you noticed the masthead change below in the Awake magazine?:

The death wake in the AWAKE or A wake in the AWAKE
Before November 1995	After November 1995
Why AWAKE! Is Published ...Most important, this magazine builds confidence in the Creator's promise of a peaceful and secure world before the generation that saw the events of 1914 passes away.	Why AWAKE! Is Published ... Most important, this magazine builds confidence in the Creator's promise of a peaceful and secure world that is about to replace the present wicked, lawless system of things.
Offer your last respects to the deceased "1914 generation" doctrine! Join the wake!

Larsinger58

Vanderhoven7: Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 are parallel passages that deal with the same issues and follow the exact same sequence of events.
Not so. Luke does have some parallel references but it is the only one that includes the fall of Jerusalem which it dates "before" the final signs.
When the end is and the 2nd coming is not a mystery but has to fulfill specific Bible chronology. The 2nd coming occurs 2520 years after the fall of Jerusalem which must be dated to 529 BCE if you want to follow the Bible's own timeline, or if you understand enough astronomy to recognize the cryptic reference to 511 BCE for year 37 of Nebuchadnezzar II in the VAT4956. Either way they reflect the original timeline where Jerusalem falls in year 19, 529 BCE. Yoyu may need to research this further to gain confidence about it, but regardless the 2nd coming does not happen until our time. Even the erroneous dates of 607 BCE and 587 BCE project the 2nd coming in either 1914 or 1934, respectively.
Now some on casual reading might think the fall of Jerusalem mentioned in Luke would contradict the second coming during the 20th Century with all things being fulfilled in the 1st Century. So that is when we go and look very closely at look and note that after mentioning the "nation vs. nation, kingdom vs. kingdom" which is a reference to WWI in the end times, it says "now before these things" and goes on to describe the fall of Jerusalem. So there is no conflict. Luke dates the fall of Jerusalem BEFORE the signs of the last days. Now you need to ACCEPT his reality or give up trying to explain how this is fulfilled.
The great tribulation happens before the 2nd coming and it was the Holocaust/WWII. The 2nd coming occurred in December of 1992, when Christ reappears in a flishly body and rules in the midst of his enemies until his kingdom is set up in the earth.
Now think about this: Two chronology prophecies must converge on the same year. 1947 is the "end of the gentile times", the end of Jewish exile and thus the end of the 1290 days. That means the messiah must arrive in 1992 to fulfill the "1335 days." That normally would present a problem with ancient history since 1992 would date the fall of Jerusalem in 529 BCE. But Jehovah has provided us with the VAT4956 which dates year 37 of Neb-II to 511 BCE! That means year 19 falls in 529 BCE. Some coincidence? No. It's just that is what the original chronology was before the Persians revised the timeline to expand the rule of some of the Persian kings. So you have an ancient astronomical text (VAT4956) confirming the Bible's own timeline now, combined with a modern event which dates the 2nd coming the very same year!
So that's the reality.
Thanks for sharing.
LS
PaintedToeNail
Vanderhoven7

Lars: << Not so. Luke does have some parallel references but it is the only one that includes the fall of Jerusalem which it dates "before" the final signs.>>
I don't see any change in order of events. Verses 25 - 32 merely describe the great tribulation associated and coinciding with the destruction of Jeusalem. Barnes writes:

Luk_21:22
All things which are written may be fulfilled -

Judgment had been threatened by almost all the prophets against that wicked city. They had spoken of its crimes and threatened its ruin. Once God had destroyed Jerusalem and carried the people to Babylon; but their crimes had been repeated when they returned, and God had again threatened their ruin. Particularly was this very destruction foretold by Daniel, Dan_9:26-27
; "And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself; and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined." See the notes at that passage.
Luk_21:24
Shall fall ... -
No less than one million one hundred thousand perished in the siege of Jerusalem.
Shall be led away captive -
More than 90,000 were led into captivity. See the notes at Matt. 24.
Shall be trodden down by the Gentiles -
Shall be in possession of the Gentiles, or be subject to them. The expression also implies that it would be an "oppressive" subjection, as when a captive in war is trodden down under the feet of the conqueror. Anciently conquerors "trod on" the necks of those who were subdued by them, Jos_10:24 ; 2Sa_22:41 ; Eze_21:29
. The bondage of Jerusalem has been long and very oppressive. It was for a long time under the dominion of the Romans, then of the Saracens, and is now of the Turks, and is aptly represented by a captive stretched on the ground whose neck is "trodden" by the foot of the conqueror.
Until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled -
This passage has been understood very differently by different expositors. Some refer it to the time which the Romans who conquered it had dominion over it... This is the opinion of the Jews and of many Christians. The meaning of the passage clearly is,
1. That Jerusalem would be completely destroyed.
2. That this would be done by Gentiles - that is, by the Roman armies.
3. That this desolation would continue as long as God should judge it proper in a fit manner to express his abhorrence of the crimes of the nation - that is, until the times allotted to "them" by God for this desolation should be accomplished, without specifying how long that would be, or what would occur to the city after that.
Luk_21:25

See the notes at

Mat_24:29
.
Upon the earth distress of nations -
Some have proposed to render the word "earth" by "land," confining it to Judea. It often has this meaning, and there seems some propriety in so using it here. The word translated "distress" denotes anxiety of mind - such an anxiety as people have when they do not know what to do to free themselves from calamities; and it means here that the calamities would be so great and overwhelming that they would not know what to do to escape. There would be a want of counsel, and deep anxiety at the impending evils.
With perplexity -
Rather "on account" of their perplexity, or the desperate state of their affairs. The Syriac has it, "perplexity or wringing of hands," which is a sign of deep distress and horror.
The sea and the waves roaring -
This is not to be understood literally, but as an image of great distress. Probably it is designed to denote that these calamities would come upon them like a deluge. As when in a storm the ocean roars, and wave rolls on wave and dashes against the shore, and each succeeding surge is more violent than the one that preceded it, so would the calamities come upon Judea. They would roll over the whole land, and each wave of trouble would be more violent than the one that preceded it, until the whole country would be desolate. The same image is also used in
Isa_8:7-8 , and Rev_18:15
.
Luk_21:26
Men’s hearts failing them -
This is an expression denoting the highest terror. The word rendered "failing" commonly denotes to "die," and here it means that the terror would be so great that people would faint and be ready to die in view of the approaching calamities. And if this was true in respect to the judgments about to come upon Judea, how much more so will it be in the day of judgment, when the wicked will be arraigned before the Son of God, and when they shall have before them the prospect of the awful sufferings of hell - the pains and woes which shall continue forever! It will be no wonder, then, if they call on the rocks and mountains to hide them from the face of God, and if their hearts sink within them at the prospect of eternal suffering.
Luk_21:28
Your redemption draweth nigh -

See the notes at Mat_24:33 . This is expressed in Luk_21:31
thus: "the kingdom of God is nigh at hand" - that is, from that time God will signally build up his kingdom. It shall be fully established when the Jewish policy shall come to an end; when the temple shall be destroyed, and the Jews scattered abroad. Then the power of the Jews shall be at an end; they shall no longer be able to persecute you, and you shall be completely delivered from all these trials and calamities in Judea.

Luk_21:22
All things which are written may be fulfilled -

Judgment had been threatened by almost all the prophets against that wicked city. They had spoken of its crimes and threatened its ruin. Once God had destroyed Jerusalem and carried the people to Babylon; but their crimes had been repeated when they returned, and God had again threatened their ruin. Particularly was this very destruction foretold by Daniel, Dan_9:26-27
; "And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself; and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined." See the notes at that passage.
Luk_21:24
Shall fall ... -
No less than one million one hundred thousand perished in the siege of Jerusalem.
Shall be led away captive -
More than 90,000 were led into captivity. See the notes at Matt. 24.
Shall be trodden down by the Gentiles -
Shall be in possession of the Gentiles, or be subject to them. The expression also implies that it would be an "oppressive" subjection, as when a captive in war is trodden down under the feet of the conqueror. Anciently conquerors "trod on" the necks of those who were subdued by them, Jos_10:24 ; 2Sa_22:41 ; Eze_21:29
. The bondage of Jerusalem has been long and very oppressive. It was for a long time under the dominion of the Romans, then of the Saracens, and is now of the Turks, and is aptly represented by a captive stretched on the ground whose neck is "trodden" by the foot of the conqueror.
Until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled -
This passage has been understood very differently by different expositors. Some refer it to the time which the Romans who conquered it had dominion over it... This is the opinion of the Jews and of many Christians. The meaning of the passage clearly is,
1. That Jerusalem would be completely destroyed.
2. That this would be done by Gentiles - that is, by the Roman armies.
3. That this desolation would continue as long as God should judge it proper in a fit manner to express his abhorrence of the crimes of the nation - that is, until the times allotted to "them" by God for this desolation should be accomplished, without specifying how long that would be, or what would occur to the city after that.
Luk_21:25

See the notes at

Mat_24:29
.
Upon the earth distress of nations -
Some have proposed to render the word "earth" by "land," confining it to Judea. It often has this meaning, and there seems some propriety in so using it here. The word translated "distress" denotes anxiety of mind - such an anxiety as people have when they do not know what to do to free themselves from calamities; and it means here that the calamities would be so great and overwhelming that they would not know what to do to escape. There would be a want of counsel, and deep anxiety at the impending evils.
With perplexity -
Rather "on account" of their perplexity, or the desperate state of their affairs. The Syriac has it, "perplexity or wringing of hands," which is a sign of deep distress and horror.
The sea and the waves roaring -
This is not to be understood literally, but as an image of great distress. Probably it is designed to denote that these calamities would come upon them like a deluge. As when in a storm the ocean roars, and wave rolls on wave and dashes against the shore, and each succeeding surge is more violent than the one that preceded it, so would the calamities come upon Judea. They would roll over the whole land, and each wave of trouble would be more violent than the one that preceded it, until the whole country would be desolate. The same image is also used in
Isa_8:7-8 , and Rev_18:15
.
Luk_21:26
Men’s hearts failing them -
This is an expression denoting the highest terror. The word rendered "failing" commonly denotes to "die," and here it means that the terror would be so great that people would faint and be ready to die in view of the approaching calamities. And if this was true in respect to the judgments about to come upon Judea, how much more so will it be in the day of judgment, when the wicked will be arraigned before the Son of God, and when they shall have before them the prospect of the awful sufferings of hell - the pains and woes which shall continue forever! It will be no wonder, then, if they call on the rocks and mountains to hide them from the face of God, and if their hearts sink within them at the prospect of eternal suffering.
Luk_21:28
Your redemption draweth nigh -

See the notes at Mat_24:33 . This is expressed in Luk_21:31
thus: "the kingdom of God is nigh at hand" - that is, from that time God will signally build up his kingdom. It shall be fully established when the Jewish policy shall come to an end; when the temple shall be destroyed, and the Jews scattered abroad. Then the power of the Jews shall be at an end; they shall no longer be able to persecute you, and you shall be completely delivered from all these trials and calamities in Judea.
Larsinger58

Offer your last respects to the deceased "1914 generation" doctrine! Join the wake!
Actually, the "1914 generation" doctrine is alive and well in the real world of the spiritual elect! That is, the idea that the second coming would occur along with all the signs during a generation of 80 years beginning with 1914 and thus prior to 1994.
That doctrine still works. The "great tribulation" that occurs before the 2nd coming was a major sign and that event was the Holocaust Also the new State of Israel was to reappear (i.e. the fig tree that begins to blossom) before the second coming, which did occur in 1948. The messiah must fulfill the concept of the "1335 days" and thus means the messiah was to appear again by 1992 since the 1290 days ends in 1947 when Jewish exile ended. 1992 is prior to 1994, so it was fulfilled!
So the specific "1914 generation" doctrine still works. What doesn't work for 1914 is the "second coming" occurring 2520 years after the fall of Jerusalem, misdated by JWs to 607 BCE. The actual event occurs in 529 BCE dating the 2nd coming to the same year you get using 1947, which is 1992. So the "7 times" prophecy points to 1992 not 1914.
Also, 1914 is said to be the "end of the gentile times" by JWs. WRONG! The true "end of the gentile times" occurs on November 30, 1947 when the Jews officially come out of exile and regain their autonomous control over their promised land. So the EOGT actually occurs in 1947 and the 2nd coming in 1992, two events the WTS thinks should have occurred in 1914. However, the "last generation" begins with a world war, which was WWI (i.e. "nation vs. nation, kingdom vs. kingdom). That actual event marks the beginning of the signs that would not outlast a generation before Christ returns. They didn't. Christ returned on December 25, 1992. So the "1914 generation", that is, 80 years after 1914 (1914-1994) still is a correct interpretation of Jesus' words and it was fulfilled!
LS
Vanderhoven7

Lars, your calculations are just that. Like the WTS speculations, they represent interpretive abuse.
Not only that, your speculations as well as those of the WTS, make absolutely no difference to anyone's salvation or walk with the Lord. What difference did the alleged invisible 1874 return of Christ have on anyone for those 40 years prior to 1914? Beyond exciting Bible Student imaginations and insider claims that is. You are off on a delusional tangent that makes no difference to anyone anywhere.
If one person tells you that you are stuborn as a mule, laugh it off.
If two people tell you that you are stuborn as a mule, get mad.
If three people tell you that you are stubborn as a mule, buy a saddle.
Vanderhoven7

Lars: BTW, my youngest son told me the other day that I'm actually stubborn as a mule.
My wife has failed to comment or confirm however...so I'm still laughing.
She just may be worried that I might write her out of my will.

What Scriptural Support Is There For Believing in Second/Greater Fulfillments of Bible Prophecy?

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