@truthseeker1969:
if they were appointed by holy spirit then there would be no need for an appeals process in JD's "as an act of kindness".
Perhaps you weren't aware of this -- I wouldn't know one way or the other -- that the appeals process is only necessary because the elders that sit on a judicial committee aren't able to read anyone's heart nor is there anyone like the apostle Peter through whom the holy spirit speaks (Acts 5:3, 4) on whom the elders can rely to ensure that all of their decisions are just. If the elders had such a person ion their midst, then there would be no need for appeals, but none of that has anything at all to do with whether or not the elders were appointed by holy spirit.
All such appointments are made based on an examination of the spiritual qualifications that someone that the individual must have to receive such an appointment. As I pointed out in my initial response to @Bubblegum Apotheosis' post, the spiritual qualifications that such appointees must have are spelled out by the apostle Paul, who wrote under the inspiration of God's holy spirit. This means that when such appointments, based on what things Paul wrote in the Bible, are made in God's organization, we cannot rightly hold Paul responsible for having made any of the appointments of those that have served or are currently serving as elders, no, for all appointments are made by what the holy spirit said by Paul in when we read and are guided by the words penned under inspiration of the holy spirit to consider at 1 Timothy 3:1-10, 12, 13.
@Bungi Bill:
All you have just proven is that it possible to use several hundred words:
- when several dozen would have sufficed!
If this was Twitter, you might be making a valid argument here, but if you comprehend "several hundred words," then how would you possibly get the sense of what I wrote in response to @Bubblegum Apotheosis' post were I to have attempt to limit what I said to 140 characters?
@Bubblegum Apotheosis:
I read your post and would like some time to prepare some Bible based remarks, with my fifty years of experience in the Organization, and with dealings will all claims that, Jehovah has used his spirit to appoint us. I greatly appreciate your view and please allow me some time to respond to your post, Thank you for taking the time to share your viewpoint, all sincere viewpoints are appreciated by me.
Ok.
One other area deserves consideration, that Jehovah's Holy Spirit is able to be [bestowed] upon men and women who have never had contact with the Watchtower Organization.
This is not true.
In addition to the apostles Peter and Paul, who were martyred for their work in connection with God's kingdom, there was Papias of Hierapolis, a bishop, who wrote "Exposition of the Lord's Oracles," said today to have been one of the Ante-Nicene Fathers, and who was martyred in 163 AD, held beliefs similar to the beliefs of Jehovah's Witnesses today. It was holy spirit that convinced Papias, based on his reading of the Bible, to believe in the millennial reign of Christ. As Paul stated at 1 Corinthians 12:3: "Nobody can say: "Jesus is Lord!" except by holy spirit."
An early Reformer, Jan Hus, who was strongly influenced by John Wycliffe, the man that had produced the very first Bible translation rendered in the English language, and Hus preached against the corruption of the Roman Catholic Church (RCC). Moved as he was by what things he read in the Bible, the holy spirit compelled Hus to stress the importance of the people being able to reading the Bible for themselves, which brought the wrath of the RCC hierarchy upon him, so that in 1403, the RCC ordered him to stop preaching the antipapal ideas of Wycliffe, whose books they had also publicly burned.
Ignoring the RCC's order, Hus went on to write some of the most stinging indictments against the practices of the Church, including the sale of indulgences, which led to his being tried at the Council of Constance, where he was condemned as a heretic and excommunicated by the RCC seven years later in 1410. However, Hus’ refusal to recant his beliefs led to his martyrdom, for five years later, in 1415, the same council ordered that Hus be burned at the stake, and this same council ordered that the bones of Wycliffe be excavated and burned, although Wycliffe had been dead for more than 30 years.
Michael Servetus of Spain, was martyred by his being burned to death in 1553 because of his rejection of the RCC's and John Calvin's view of Jesus Christ being part of a Trinity, for anyone in those days that had been moved by holy spirit to dissent from belief in the Trinity was considered a heretic and thought to be condemned.
Charles Russell (1852-1916) had once been associated with Congregational Church; Jonas Wendell (1815-1873) had been associated with the Second Adventist Church; Nelson H. Barbour (1824-1906) had been associated with the Millerites Adventists; George Stetson (1814-1879) had been associated with the Advent Christian Church; Henry Grew (1781-1862) had been associated with the Orthodox Church; and George Storrs (1796-1879) had been associated with the Methodist Church. All of these men were students of God's word and men upon whom God's holy spirit operated, but it was because of the contact that all of these men had with Pastor Russell that he came to acquire the spiritual insight that was required to restore true worship and to spread the message about God's kingdom throughout the earth.
Everyone JW [sic] has heard indirectly that, you have to be a "JW from the Watchtowers" worldview, so if the big "A" were to come today, for years I have heard "Jehovah would judge all of Iran, Afghanistan, China, Russia, Albany and a plethora of other countries, where the "Good News" has not been preached.
As far as the countries of China, Iran, Afghanistan and Russia, this just isn't true. As far as the country of Albania is concerned, some two years after the fall of the Berlin wall on November 9, 1989, the 24-year ban on religious activities in this nation was lifted in 1991. I might add that we are in Pakistan as well. We even have publishers in Saudi Arabia even though we no longer publish reports about this or any other nation where our work may currently be under ban. If you should no longer be involved in helping us complete the work that all Christians are obliged to do, then what difference would it make what Jehovah's Witnesses might be doing anywhere in the world? The point I would make here though is that whoever it was that suggested to you that the good news wasn't being preached in these countries was mistaken.
The W.T.S. believes they have control over the [magnificent] Holy Spirit, and who is saved by Jehovah.
This is not true.
The Bible is very clear, that Jehovah will save, [anoint] men and women, who are not [affiliated] with the Watchtower.
This is also not true. First of all, Jesus is responsible for mankind's salvation, for just as Jesus stated at John 5:26, God has granted to Jesus "to have life in himself," so Jehovah isn't involved in anyone's salvation at all. Secondly, there is no one that has received an anointing or is yet anointed by holy spirit that would not be affiliated with Jehovah's Witnesses.
I digress, but I wanted to add this to our discussion, that Jehovah has people in every country, he has never left his name unrepresented (Paul speaks of men whose conscience bear witness to their actions, and implicate or [exonerate] them, through their God given sense of right or wrong, since [Adam)].
You seem to be alluding to our moral nature, which is a law about which Paul wrote at Romans 2:14, 15, with reference to the human conscience that gives to us a sense of fairness, a sense of right and wrong. The conscience is the God-given moral sense that was given to all mankind, which has nothing at all to do with Jehovah's name, and our "perceptive powers" do "bear witness ... in holy spirit" if our consciences have been "trained to distinguish both right and wrong." (Romans 9:1; Hebrews 5:14)
Egg cut and pasted his form letter response on this issue.
I don't have any "form letter." I write this way because I do not wish to make it easy for my words to be taken out of context, so I'm verbose when I write, whereas I'm brief when I don't learn anything when I'm speaking, but learn much by listening.
We are told to watch the conduct of those taking the lead, and to run, if they are acting wickedly. The Society tells us not to judge the elders or the GB, only to constantly judge our own works.
That is not true, for all Christians are required to "contemplate how [the] conduct of the elders turns out" and that the only thing that Christians should "imitate [is] their faith" and nothing more than this. (Hebrews 13:7)
@curiousconfused:
3. When the prospective elder displays [Fruitage] of the Spirit, then it can be said that HS is working on him;
Every Christian ought to exhibit the fruitage of the spirit, but every prospective elder should manifest godly wisdom and give evidence of their being led by God's spirit would have their spiritual qualifications reviewed by the body of elders. (1 Timothy 3:1-10, 12, 13; Titus 1:5-9)
make a review of their spiritual qualifications to serve as an elder. Like Christ Jesus, they should "with lowliness of mind" consider those in the congregation "as being superior to them. (Philippians 2:3-6)
@djeggnog wrote:
... it is by means of holy spirit that the "faithful and discreet slave" (Matthew 24:45-47), as represented by the Governing Body, received its appointment to preside over the slave's "domestics" as well as over the rest of the Christian household to make appointments of the local body of elders, which scripturally-qualified men, who serve as "shepherds and teachers," are as "gifts" given by Jesus, men to whom Christians in the local congregation are directed to "be submissive." (Ephesians 4:7, 8, 11-13; Hebrews 13:17)
@pharmer wrote:
Is this really correct JW understanding, that the GB presides over the slave's domestics? Not over the Master's domestics?
Read Luke 12:42-44.) He called the slave a "steward" and referred to the "domestics" as "his body of attendants." A steward is a house manager or administrator who is placed over servants. Yet, the steward is also a servant.
At Matthew 24:45, we read, "whom his master appointed over his domestics, to give them their food at the proper time," we read in the parallel citation at Luke 12:42, "whom his master will appoint over his body of attendants to keep giving them their measure of food supplies at the proper time." A steward is put in charge of the master's house and in administering his duties, gives direction to all of the master's slaves that live in the house, even though the steward is but a slave himself.
At Matthew 24:45, Jesus was really asking rhetorically, "What nation will discreetly replace fleshly Israel as God's servant and be responsible for feeding the master's domestics? This question was said with reference to the Israel of God, who had now become God's servant.
Would that not mean that the GB IS the master?
No, Jesus is the master, something that I would expect those who had formerly been Jehovah's Witnesses to already know. But now you know, @pharmer.
To whom do these domestics belong?
Let's reason this out: Jehovah is the Father, Jesus is his Son, the heir, and the domestics or body of attendants? Well, technically these domestics belong to both Jehovah and Jesus, but, in the Bible, the Son is referred to as their "master." In Matthew 24:29-31, Jesus indicates that it would be "after the tribulation" that the Son of man would come "with power and great glory," and the "day and hour" of their master's arrival wouldn't be something that his servant would know (verse 36), so since the "Son of man" is the Lord Jesus Christ, then the "master" of the domestics would also be the Lord Jesus Christ, thus the need for all of the domestics to "keep on the watch" and be "ready" for their master's arrival (verses 42-44), for the master comes on a day that none of his domestics expect and in an hour that they do not know (verses 50). Also, should there be any doubt, Colossians 3:24 points out that "the Master" is Christ and so the domestics belong to him.
@Bubblegum Apotheosis:
The critical thinking ability of JWN, is so sharp, when we all discuss these man made doctrines.
How so? I've seen evidence of a critical attitude and a lot of faultfinding and no evidence of "critical thinking ability" on here.
[My brother's] wife is the perfect "Stepford" wife, she blindly obeys this fools rantings, she [believes] that she does not have to study magazines (or read anything the Society prints), read the Bible, blatantly practices "Corban" with no [conscience].... How is that for Holy Spirit Appointment?
I fail to see how putting your own sister-in-law "on blast" (as the kids put it nowadays) in front of folks who, despite the anonymity, are really strangers to you doesn't speak more to the hatred you have for your brother and his wife than it does to the question of whether your brother was appointed by holy spirit. What you said here seems more a testimony of the contempt you have for members of your own family, and, quite frankly, I don't see how you can speak this way about your own relatives unless you truly have a hatred for them.
If your younger brother should die today, it would seem that you would attend his funeral, if you were to attend it at all, for appearances sake only, because what you have done here seems tantamount to your standing above the hole that had been dug into which the casket containing your brother has already been lowered, extracting your penis from your pants and then urinating all over it. Who does this??
This thread you started here is one about doctrine, a doctrine that you clearly don't understand, a doctrine about which the Bible speaks that you don't believe Jehovah's Witnesses understand either, and based on what things you know about your younger brother and about your sister-in-law, you have doubts as to how it is that this guy -- your brother -- could have possibly been appointed by holy spirit. Apparently you derive joy from deriding and throwing darts at your own family members in front of strangers, but what happened to the thread you started? Have you lost interest in it or was all of what you said in your opening post just a prelude to the dart-fest?
Based on your opening salvo --
The study edition of the Watchtower says the elders are appointed by Jehovah's Holy Spirit. It's confounding the Society does not realize that more and more elders, do not accept this claim.... I can count twenty elders off hand, who do not agree with the Watchtower's claim on this matter.
-- I made a few comments to dispel this notion of yours that any of the elders doubt that their appointment were made by holy spirit, since it appeared to me that you were of the opinion that elders are selected by some visible manifestation of holy spirit as per those tongues that hovered above the heads of the 120 that had been gathered together in that room in Jerusalem on that Pentecost day when they became filled with holy spirit.
The Bible doesn't teach that elders are appointed in such a fashion, but that they are appointed based on whether they are spiritually qualified to do serve as such according to what the Bible says, or, to express this in another way, according to what the holy spirit says at 1 Timothy 3:1-10, 12, 13 and at Titus 1:5-9. I did expect you would respond to my post, but, as yet, you haven't done so. I suppose you will respond to it when you are done pushing this tangent of yours about most of the elders doubting holy spirit as being the source of their appointments.
@djeggnog
