Hostile to atheists (page 12)

NewChapter

But it's not only fundamental religions. There is a spectrum. And within that spectrum, different lines are drawn. I know moderates who don't believe in evolution and really don't want their children to be taught such. Also, when a moderate is exposed to a fundamentalist, their tone also changes.

People at the left end of the spectrum don't generally try to affect policy, and yet I get similiar conversations from liberal believers who are simply convinced that I haven't looked at this issue from all sides. The person I was speaking to that I had to just dismiss was quite liberal. But when it came right down to it, he thought that secretly (even to myself) I was a spiritual person and just needed to be talked to. Which was pretty disrespectful since I would never assume that a person who said they believed really didn't believe and simply needed to be healed in some way to realize that about themselves.

So when I do make blanket statements---I'm often not differentiated between liberal, moderate, fundamentalist because what all believers have in common is that they believe. How they act may be very different, but they do believe.

NC

d

I also believe the bible is a whole lot of fiction and very little fact.-d

tec

We don't stifle the learning or critical thinking of our children in Canada... at least not in the school systems, and that includes the Catholic school systems. I went to a Catholic school, and while I learned christianity, I also learned other religions in a World Religions course, and science was science... it was not creationism (which Catholics do not believe in anyway). Your problem with Christianity sounds to me to be a very American problem; at least as much if not more more than it is a religion problem. (though I admit that I do not know what it is like in the UK)

I sympathize with that, but it is not like that everywhere.

(or maybe Canadians are just freakin' awesome...)

Peace,

tammy

FlyingHighNow

New Chapter, it could be some of the fundamentalists. Most modern churches don't insist on some exact modern date for the birth of the universe. Even the JW's admit the earth could be millions of years old. Many of the churches embrace a combination of creationism and evolution. I seriously doubt the 40 % number is anywhere close to accurate. When I was growing up in the 1960's and 70's the schools taught us how old the universe might be and no one argued. That is a more extreme view among anybody, really, that the universe would be that young. I'd imagine it would be more from lack of remembering Earth Science class lessons than it would be from things taught in churches. Something I've learned in my going on six decades here on earth, is that in general, people don't want to burden themselves with overthinking anything.

FlyingHighNow

He says that around 40% of Americans believe that the universe is less than 10,000 years old.

Until he talks to 100% of old enough Americans to get accurate statistics, this is a line of bull manure. I am pretty surprised that you'd throw that quote out there without first stopping to think about how he came to the statistic. Even if it was remotely true, consider this: America has been pretty dumbed down and it has little to do with religion. I'd blame cable tv, video games, the internet and the culture of fun and instant gratification before I'd make a sweeping statement laying the blame at the feet of religion. A lot kids today don't know simple geography. And the world map has changed so much sense we were kids, do we even know where every country is?

NewChapter

FHN---it's a statistic that I've seen repeated quite a bit. Because you are quite liberal and accept evolution, perhaps you have not seen what is happening outside the liberal churches. This is growing. Where I live, a huge percentage don't believe in evolution and believe the earth is quite young. So that is our personal experiences, which are naturally going to differ. No, I don't believe that creationists want to overthink any issue, as they seem to want all the answers and they want them to fit in their pocket. But I'm from a state where we have extremely conservative areas and pretty liberal areas. I live in a liberal area (Kucinich was my rep---and that's pretty far left) and yet still, a large portion of the people I meet are part of the 40%.

I don't like to simply appeal to authority, but I don't think Dawkins would use an unfounded statistic. It rang true for me, so I didn't question it. I still don't question it.

Years ago when I went to some bible studies, I have said these people were motivated and organized. They wanted Playboy out of the stores (they actually said they had the right and the authority to set the rules here, because they had holy spirit) evolution and sex education out of the schools, and christian policy to be in government. And they were growing! And we see they have made disturbing headway.

You are UU. I do understand where you are coming from, and I'm good with that. I know when you come to a thread like this, you may feel some hostility. Please put it in context. The bulk of this HAS been over people that are trying to force their worldview on us. You are not one of them. But we are discussing that aspect of the issue. We are concerned. We are frustrated. And we are speaking about it. It is hard to do so without offending others, but it's not a personal thing. We are most definitely talking in generalities---but the conversation would be incredibly tedious otherwise.

For myself, when speaking of policy, I am speaking of fundamentalists that are trying to dumb our kids down and deny us our civil rights.

When I am speaking personally, I am talking about how most believers address me---liberal or not. And I'm sure you have frustrations over how atheists address you----as you have expressed them. I did not take it personally---I'm sure you feel that you are not received. Okay. The tension will always be there, and we will always discuss it.

NC

FlyingHighNow

Your problem with Christianity sounds to me to be a very American problem; at least as much if not more more than it is a religion problem.

Could it be more of a problem with assumption, than it is an American problem? Could it be more a lack of knowledge about what different religions and Christian sects really believe and teach, that it is an American problem? Could be.

FlyingHighNow

FHN---it's a statistic that I've seen repeated quite a bit.

That doesn't make it real or accurate. I'd have to stand up for the American people and say this sounds pretty ridiculous.

FlyingHighNow

Evolution and how long the earth has been here are two different matters. The Bible doesn't say how long the earth has been here really, but if we went strictly by the Bible and Genesis account, the earth would still have to over 40,000 years old.

NewChapter

Or it could be an American problem because we have congressmen reading the bible on the floor to support their reasons for not acting on environmental issues, we have courts that have to hear cases to keep ID out of the classroom, we have abstinence only education, ammendmants in the states, and proposal in DC to prevent same sex marriage, a SERIOUS presidential candidate who clapped for a pastor who told non-chrisitians to get out of America and said the goal was to put god in government----

But instead of discussing these very real threats, we have to worry that something we say will upset someone that does not hold these views, unless I include a paragraph that says I know the difference, and am specifically referring to people that make their religion my problem etc

For goodness sakes. No wonder we can't discuss these things. It is very frustrating---

NC

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