Hostile to atheists

by d 281 Replies latest members politics

glenster

If someone is progressive/reform Abrahamic, sees faith as such and
keeps up to speed about the known things (so separation of church
and state/evolution/homosexualty/feminism/having different sorts as
friends, etc.), they may interpret characterizations indicated by some
of the posts, if characterizing all religion or believers as making
whatever conservative violations of those understandings, as un-
necessary againstness from a 'centric non-believer stance, possibly
hostile.
Bill Maher, for example, isn't just someone who rejects belief in
God/gods but gets dickish (as Jon Stewart might say) about it at times.
He's like the Newt Gingrich of atheists. He doesn't just provide
exposes with Religulous but at the end seems to think he's substantiated
the proposal of an atheist (conservative-style) Armageddon: the world
would be better if we get rid of everyone different than him. Moderates
are characterized as encouraging the harm of the conservatives, though
how, since they plainly refute the harmfulness and misunderstandings of
the conservatives, he doesn't make clear.
And he doesn't seem to realize how ironic he's being--in the name of wanting
people to get along better, he's using the sort of 'centric propaganda that's
led to the worst harm from believers or non-believers. Again, see the links at
the next link for no shortage of evidence.
http://gtw6437.tripod.com/id58.html
Ham-handed broadside swings from whatever the stance against the different
ones are unfortunately common and what I'd recommend the better-informed
believers and non-believers to agree to be against. I think that's a more
realistic way to suggest that the different kinds get along without hostlities
in the absence of proof that they all have to be the same.
Low-Key Lysmith

I'm still trying to figure out where these ultra-right Republicans are getting this idea that the US was "founded on Christianity" or is a "Christian nation"?
Thomas Jefferson:
"Christianity neither is, nor ever was, a part of the Common Law." -letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, 1814
"this would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it."
“Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man.”
Benjamin Franklin:
"Lighthouses are more helpful than churches." -in Poor Richard's Almanac
"When a religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself so that its professors are obliged to call for the help of the civil power, 'tis a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one."
"In the affairs of the world, men are saved not by faith, but by the lack of it."
James Madison:
"It may not be easy, in every possible case, to trace the line of separation between the rights of religion and the Civil authority with such distinctness as to avoid collisions and doubts on unessential points. The tendency to unsurpastion on one side or the other, or to a corrupting coalition or alliance between them, will be best guarded agst. by an entire abstinence of the Gov't from interfence in any way whatsoever, beyond the necessity of preserving public order, and protecting each sect agst. trespasses on its legal rights by others." James Madison, "James Madison on Religious Liberty", edited by Robert S. Alley, ISBN 0-8975-298-X. pp. 237-238
"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise." -letter to Wm. Bradford, April 1, 1774
"The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe in blood for centuries." -1803 letter objecting use of gov. land for churches
John Adams:
"I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved-- the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!" -letter to Thomas Jefferson
"The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity. Nowhere in the Gospels do we find a precept for Creeds, Confessions, Oaths, Doctrines, and whole cartloads of other foolish trumpery that we find in Christianity."
"The question before the human race is, whether the God of Nature shall govern the world by his own laws, or whether priests and kings shall rule it by fictitious miracles?"
"Can a free government possibly exist with the Roman Catholic religion?" -letter to Thomas Jefferson
George Washington:
"Religious controversies are always productive of more acrimony and irreconcilable hatreds than those which spring from any other cause. Of all the animosities which have existed among mankind, those which are caused by the difference of sentiments in religion appear to be the most inveterate and distressing, and ought most to be depreciated. I was in hopes that the enlightened and liberal policy, which has marked the present age, would at least have reconciled Christians of every denomination so far that we should never again see the religious disputes carried to such a pitch as to endanger the peace of society." - letter to Edward Newenham, 1792
Thomas Paine:
"Of all the tyrannies that affect mankind, tyranny in religion is the worst."
"Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half of the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we call it the word of a demon than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind."
"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish Church, by the Roman Church, by the Greek Church, by the Turkish Church, by the Protestant Church, nor by any Church that I know of. My own mind is my own Church. Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all."
"All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit."
FlyingHighNow

It's fine if you believe and want to investigate a different definition of him, but why would that impact someone on the secular left?
I copied and pasted from the web site to show what we are discussing at Oasis. The quote is not from me, the one about the secular left, but has the author of the quote credited. The DVD Saving Jesus Redux isn't meant to draw people such as yourself. It is for people who do not find themselves at either pole, the far Chrisitan right or the secular left. The series is a myth buster. We don't discuss the right or left.
NewChapter

FHN---I know. I was responding to that author, not you. Sorry if it felt harsh. It is frustrating when people do say things like the secular left using Jesus etc. We actually don't. If we are secular, it means Jesus is not relevant to our stands and our struggles. But sometimes when a person holds a viewpoint, they tend to frame everyone else's point from that starting point.
The only time I really invoke the idea of Jesus is to point out a hypocrisy. For instance, when speaking to a Jesus believer that uses the bible to support their argument, I like to point out that Jesus was silent on abortion, yet had much to say about taking care of the sick and the poor, so I find it disingenuous for them to carry Jesus name to withhold tax dollars from the poor while they picket abortion clinics. It seems out of balance to me when I consider their belief system.
FHN---have you ever checked out The Christian Left on facebook? I really like them and joined, even though I'm not a Christian. They are very universal in their approach, and seek to undo some of the damage the right has done to their reputations as Christian.
Anyway---it wasn't meant for you . You posted another author's work, and therefore I responded to that author.
NC
NewChapter

I'm still trying to figure out where these ultra-right Republicans are getting this idea that the US was "founded on Christianity" or is a "Christian nation"?
Because the victors write the history books! They have been assured, by their god, of victory. Read their version carefully. If we aren't careful it's their version that our grandchildren will be learning.
NC
FlyingHighNow

Religion is not 100% evil. Like anything humans do, it's got its very good points and it's middle ground. And like anything human beings do, it can be used for corrupt, even evil purposes.
There is so much outreach into the communities from very liberal forward thinking churches, synagogues, temples, etc and right on through to the very fundamentalist churches. I remember back in Cartersville, GA, one of the huge Baptist Churches had a charity for expectant mothers and new mothers of all ages. They provided counseling about options to abortions and help with adoptions should mothers choose to carry the pregnancies through. They helped with maternity clothes, baby clothes, furniture, diapers and formula. These services were provided to unwed mothers as well. I took my daughter there because they had a lot of good information about options. The counselors were very kind and understanding to her. We were JW's then. She was 16. JW's had nothing for her. I am not a fan of the Southern Baptist Church at all. Yes, they will try to save your soul, but I have to commend that particular one for compassionate support for moms and families in trouble.
My church has a clothing closet and collects food every month for the food pantries. They also collect toiletries, diapers, razors, paper goods, etc. St. Andrews helps pay for water purification systems for third world countries. Both churches have adopted elementary schools and provide volunteer mentors for struggling kids. Julian had one of the mentors from a different church. That church really went out of their way making sure he had things he needed and a good Christmas.
Julian, atheist, is a member of Grand Rapids Episcopal Youth Group. Last year they did a 36 hour Urban Plunge with Heartside Ministries to the Homeless. Though it is a faith based ministry, it's unique in that they do NOT require that people attend religious services to get help. The kids went down and experienced a night and parts of two days walking in the shoes of the Heartside Residents. Heartside has an art studio where the residents can work in different mediums to express themselves and heal. G.R.E.Y kids have collected art supplies and delivered them to Heartside for the past year.
G.R.E.Y also went on a week long mission trip to Moline, Illinois. Julian went along. They worked in a poor neighborhood and helped the elderly with home repairs, house painting and yard work. There is a disabled man who lives in the neighborhood, a former biker. He teaches all of the kids in the neighborhood to repair their bikes. Julian helped build window shutters and paint them for this man's house. The kids got to have fun in the evenings. Julian's an atheist, but he loved the mission trip. They got to cross over into Iowa and go shooting pool one night.
If you suddenly vaporized all religion, you'd be left with huge deficits in outreach and charity. In the USA, homeless shelters, thrift shops and foodbanks are mostly founded by churches. And the services they provide are not for believers, they are for everyone.
thetrueone

"Politicians treat God the way heavy metal bands treat Satan, as some kind of marketing device."
Matsimus

I agree with you NewChapter. I am an atheist myself, but don't object to people believing in a god. What I think is wrong, is using christianity to gather support on political issues. A country needs good secular politicians, who want to serve the country for the benefit of the people, not a god. When Norway made it's constitution, they got influenced by Americas secular way of building the country. The churches tended to the beliefs and the spirituality of the people, the state governed them and most important of all, they were separete.
Matsimus
FlyingHighNow

New Chapter, I will have to look at that sometime, on facebook. I'd say most Episcopalians are moderate or left. Some are Republicans, but not extremist types.
NewChapter

I know all that FHN. Churches are made up of people, and people can do good things---naturally.
But we have been looking at the other side of the issue too. I'm sure some of the criticism feels personal, but it takes a lot of words to keep saying some not all, and all are guilty of some, and some are guilty of all etc.
We have a church near me that put up a sign on the interstate that said something like "Homosexuality is a sin. . . . Jesus can free you."
This is a very important interstate in a high traffic area. Gay people and those who love them were forced to read that sign everyday. So I wonder how many meals, or clothing that church has to provide to undo the damage and the judgement they were handing out to people that never asked them for a thing?
Now the other side. Other churches responded, including UU, and the sign was removed. But that's the huge problem---if they put hate like that up there (they could have easily said "Feed the Poor" "Love your Neighbor") then it's just love of god. If I put a sign up that said "Keep your Christianity out of my Child's School Curriculum!" then that would be called persecution. This is the side of the issue I'm addressing now.
NC

Hostile to atheists

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