Hostile to atheists

by d 281 Replies latest members politics

  • NewChapter
    NewChapter

    I wonder though if the lack of evidence for belief from very early hunter-gatherers is actually proof of a lack of belief.

    No, it's not, but it is an intersting idea. Foragers don't settle, so we can't find areas rich in artifacts. They also did not have many possessions since they generally lived in the open and moved on quickly. Then there is the issue of the highly symbolic nature of religion. Symbolism is so subjective, that we really don't understand the meaning of much of it. We can make guesses. We can look for other clues, but we will never know for sure. We can find an area with a lot of flint chips, and we can surmise that they stopped here and made tools. But without settlement, there will be no accumulation.

    Most artifacts are lost to the ages. Foragers are the trickiest. We know from more modern foragers that they tend toward magic. They may also gravitate toward believing in spirits and the thought that inanimate objects and animals have spirits. Foragers' religion is very different than the religion of horticulturists and later agriculturists. Those gods would focus on the growing seasons, and the sun would be very important. And those people settled and built places of worship. Lot's of evidence.

    So it's a tough call. I've been studying anthropology, and I can say that I have not learned about any foraging band that did not have some kind of religion. That doesn't mean they didn't, but clearly their lives are full of questions and often they found themselves at the mercy of nature.

    So for the long history of humans, we were foragers. Our religion would have reflected this. Look at the religion of the bible. It's an agriculturalist's religion. A temple, growing seasons and rituals, home ownership etc. If anything, the huge variety of religion proves that the spiritual in not true, because if it were, where is the direction and uniformity? Or does the spiritual simply not care, and left humans to flounder for the answers while expecting acknowledgement?

    And claiming that the Hebrew god and Jesus are somehow special and true is laughable. We have millions of years of history, (including archaic humans) including mostly magic practicing foragers, and three thousand years ago some people started putting it in writing---AND IT'S TRUE! LOL And we were wrong for ages and ages before then. It makes absolutley no sense.

    But liberal believers will simply write and rewrite these facts and their beliefs until it all fits. In that way, I think it is a great deal harder to make a point with them than it is fundamentalists. Fundamentalists see one way and truth. You can call them on it. Talking to a more liberal believer, and you are trying to catch water in your hand. It is whatever they need it to be, and absolutely no fact will have any effect on that.

    Which is fine. I just get cranky when they try to say it is scientific. Once that is out there, the conversation that follows is absolutely dizzy making. They treat science like they treat their belief system---as though it is something that is fluid with no direction and is whatver they need it to be.

    NC

  • tec
    tec

    I wonder though if the lack of evidence for belief from very early hunter-gatherers is actually proof of a lack of belief.

    I do not believe so. NC's post above summed that up for me.

    If anything, the huge variety of religion proves that the spiritual in not true, because if it were, where is the direction and uniformity? Or does the spiritual simply not care, and left humans to flounder for the answers while expecting acknowledgement?

    I don't see this as a problem. Even among one religion - Judaism - there was more than one sect. Different thoughts, different details... and a new sect is born. Then one was sent to show them the truth.

    Even so, there is uniformity and direction; truths that surpass all religion, and its various laws and rules. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Show love to others. These are fairly universal, and Christ said all the laws hinge upon them. Regardless of how many times peoples and religions and cultures branch out and create something new, these truths remain. (Some people twist them and warp them like they do anything else to fit their own agenda, but that is another story.) Universal truths seem like a sign of uniformity and direction to me.

    Peace,

    tammy

  • NewChapter
    NewChapter

    Actually there is no uniformity among the diverse beliefs. If you think doing unto others is the single truth, that is also explained through evolution. Our ancestors were all foragers. Small bands of people that depended on each other, so their needed to be social order. Members needed to be protected for the survival of all.

    We can look at the Aztecs and their ball game and human sacrifice to see that this truth was not universal, but generally applied within tribe or group. It's still the same today. It's wrong to kill a fellown countryman, but perfectly find to blow up a child in another country. And religion has always been used as an excuse, and that continues today also. Chimpanzees are similar, and they are closely related to us in a relative sense. Of course, they don't use religion to absolve them of that responsibility---it's just the way they are.

    Hopefully with further enlightenment, that will become clearer with time.

    NC

  • NewChapter
    NewChapter

    LOL---so I thought I'd show my response to a recent flirt I got on a dating site:

    HIM: Better change your ways or you'll burn in hell!!! Believe in God!!!!!

    My Response: Alas, while your message warms my heart, I don't think we will be a good match. While I appreciate your boldness in threatening a complete stranger with pain and suffering, as a writer, I cannot get past your abuse of exclamation points. One exclamation point is as emphatic as one can get. Tripling or quadrupling them does nothing to intensify the message that I will burn in hell forever. Thank you for your kind sentiment though!

  • tec
    tec

    Love your single e x clamation point at the end of your response! Leading by e x ample ;)

  • NewChapter
    NewChapter

    Yes, example is quite important when teaching a life's lesson!

    LOL !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    NC

  • Scully
    Scully

    I once disclosed to someone at work that I am atheist.

    She rolled her eyes and said "There's no such thing as a real atheist. Sooner or later, you will realize and understand God's love."

    I replied with "Not with you rolling your eyes and assuming superiority toward me like that, I won't."

  • NewChapter
    NewChapter

    LOL!

    "One day you'll stop being so freaking stupid and defective I can't even pretend respect you, and you'll be healed and come around to seeing things my way."

  • d
  • ziddina
    ziddina
    "Many historical cultures in the hunter-gatherer neanderthal stages have left no evidence they were involved in spiritual belief systems. ..." just n from bethel, page 13...

    Wrong.

    There's good evidence that Neanderthal man had some sort of funeral ritual, which is almost always connected with a belief in an "afterlife", among so-called "primitive" people.

    From Discovery News: http://news.discovery.com/history/neanderthal-burial-ground-afterlife-110420.html

    "Evidence for a likely 50,000-year-old Neanderthal burial ground that includes the remains of at least three individuals has been unearthed in Spain, according to a Quaternary International paper.
    The deceased appear to have been intentionally buried, with each Neanderthal's arms folded such that the hands were close to the head. Remains of other Neanderthals have been found in this position, suggesting that it held meaning.
    Neanderthals therefore may have conducted burials and possessed symbolic thought before modern humans had these abilities. ..."

    The "Berekhat Ram" figurine, discovered in Israel and determined to be at least 232,000 years old and probably made by Homo erectus, as well as the "Tan-Tan" figurine discovered in Morocco and determined to be easily as old as the Berekhat Ram figurine, are both powerful evidence of goddess-worship among pre-Homo sapien humans...

    And there's even some evidence that chimpanzees may have some form of "religion"...

    Regarding the "Tan-Tan" figurine and the "Acheulean" groups of Homo erectus:

    "The Acheulian of north-western Africa is of great significance to the study of the same industry in south-western Europe because of the likelihood that Europe was initially settled via the Strait of Gibraltar rather than via eastern Europe (Bednarik 1999 a). The identical Lower Paleolithic development in western Europe and the Maghreb, the presence of Acheulian disc beads on both sides of the western Mediterranean (Bednarik 2001 a), and the evidence of Acheulian navigation from the huge former Fezzan Lake (Bednarik 2001 b) render it very plausible that the Strait of Gibraltar was negotiated by these hominids. This possibility is supported by the significantly longer sea crossings achieved by their Indonesian contemporaries (Bednarik 1999 b). The stone tool technologies of Indonesia (such as those at Mata Menge, Boa Leza, Koba Tuwa, Ngamapa, and To'os [Bednarik and Kuckenburg 1999 ]) and northern Africa were among the most advanced at that time. The existence of the Tan-Tan figurine needs to be seen in this general context, the context of an enterprising and relatively sophisticated people. ..."

    And regarding the possibility of religion existing among chimpanzees:

    http://www.originsnet.org/Chimpanzee%20Religion%20Database%20Tables%20SM2%202012.pdf

    Moving on to another set of comments....

    "What is notable is the rise and increase of superstitious relics from an increase in Agricultural based communities. ..." just n from bethel, page 13

    Also wrong.

    Both Stonehenge and the fairly new discovery of the vast systems of temples at Gobekle Tepe were built by "foragers" - nomadic hunter-gatherer groups who obviously gathered at significant sites for special ceremonies at certain times of the year.

    From the National Geographic article on Gobekli Tepe:

    "At the time of Göbekli Tepe's construction much of the human race lived in small nomadic bands that survived by foraging for plants and hunting wild animals. ..."

    http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2011/06/gobekli-tepe/mann-text

    "Foragers don't settle, so we can't find areas rich in artifacts. ..." New Chapter, page 13

    Definitely not true.

    The main reason we know about many "foraging" groups - "hunter-gatherers", such as the "Clovis" people of North America, is by the large quantities of their stone spearheads, bone points, and other artifacts... In the case of the "Clovis" people, their artifacts are found primarily in North America, but also extending into Central America:

    http://csfa.tamu.edu/who.php

    "Clovis artifacts are widely and unevenly dispersed in North and Central America, with the cultural range apparently limited primarily by continental and mountain glaciers, lakes, and associated inhospitable terrain features. Clovis people definitely were not limited to or focused upon any specific geographic areas. Yet, Clovis points are notably more common in the Southern and Central plains than in the Northern Plains, and more Clovis artifacts come from the northern Great Basin and northwestern United States than the Northern Plains. ..."

    http://www.panhandlenation.com/prehistory/disc_arc/clovis.htm

    A group need not be 'settled', in order for areas rich in discoveries to be made regarding their lifestyles...

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit