Hostile to atheists

by d 281 Replies latest members politics

  • NewChapter
    NewChapter

    I never felt hostile toward my atheist brother. (when I was a believer). He was a man of integrity, so I didn't make assumptions. However he would tell me about the hostility that he faced daily, because he was always out.

    One man on a job site found out he was an atheist, and just freaked on him. He asked my brother that if he didn't believe in a god, what prevented him from eating his own children? LOL A coworker came to the rescue, as my brother was like a deer in headlights at the absurdity, and said, "If the only thing that keeps you from eating your own children is going to church, then you have much bigger problems than this guy being an atheist."

    He also chose AA when he wanted to quit drinking. But the pressure in that group to accept a higher power and believe in a god was overwhelming for him. He found no comfort in the prayers, or talk of spirituality. On paper, that is not supposed to matter, but in practice he was always meeting with hostile comments, or comments that he was defective in some way and couldn't stay sober without god. He left. He's still sober. They openly predicted his failure. He says that gives him even more motivation to stay sober.

    NC

  • tec
    tec

    This blanket statement is not true. There are plenty of ancient nomad and hunter-gatherer groups that left no indication whatsoever they believed in any invisible spirit-world. An unbiased study of history helps give you a better perspective of how such beliefs developed (and relatively recently compared to total time humans have been around). These weren't athiests, but rather un-thiests. They couldn't "not believe" in something that hadn't been invented. Where did the invention come from? Much of it was stemmed from a shift from hunter gatherer to agricultural - more time to sit and reflect and come up with creative answers for things they couldn't explain. Germs, disease, epilepsy, natural disasters, etc. all needing to be explained away. Not hard to see how that developed.

    I was under the impression that as far back as humanity goes (neanderthals/what-have-you); there is evidence of them believing in deities of some sort.

    All-in-all, the full history of mankind paints a picture that includes many groups and time periods where no invention of spirit life existed nor was needed.

    Can you give me a for instance?

    Note that i am not speaking about people who later came to question deities, etc... but those who sprang up without any other influence, and had no spirituality among them?

    It would be interesting to read about them.

    Peace,

    tammy

  • NewChapter
    NewChapter

    We don't actually know if Neanderthal believed in deities. There is some evidence that they may have had spiritual inclincations, but how that worked out is unknown.

    But Neanderthal is not the only human to consider. There have been many ancient humans that showed no spirituality at all. The idea seemed to come about with the ability to think symbolically.

    It is interesting that the type of culture also dictates the type of religion in most cases. Bands (foragers) tend to look to magic. Religion becomes more complex as the society does.

    I don't know how any of that proves the spiritual is real.

    NC

  • tec
    tec

    It doesn't prove that spirituality is real. It just shows that spirituality has been prevalent with us since the dawn of man, or at least man as we know to date.

    Peace,

    tammy

  • just n from bethel
    just n from bethel

    Many historical cultures in the hunter-gatherer neanderthal stages have left no evidence they were involved in spiritual belief systems. Read Jared Diamond's Guns Germs and Steel or any book on pre-civilization. And while it's easy to point out that some early groups had individuals that had what we may call superstitions, many other groups showed no signs of such beliefs. It's just a non-issue. We learn from them what little we can from the remnants left behind and if religious and superstitious ideas were not one of them, then it's not a mentionable item to most historians.ust because one group here or there did, doesn't mean every group everywhere 60,000 or 100,000 years ago did. The small but scattered amount of findings that showed the existance of man in those eras, may have shown where one family lived or ate, but little was left that indicates anything whatsoever about worship or beliefs. To state otherwise is beyond conjecture.

    What is notable is the rise and increase of supersticious relics from an increase in Agricultural based communities. The dramatic increase is not correlated to a population rise either, and thus conclusions can be drawn about the development of human thought, particurlarly as more time became availalbe to allow for the beginings of the formation of civilization.

    So while certainly you can say as civilizatioin began to rise so did the increase in people desiring answers to events occuring without obvious cause. Many invented supersticious beliefs systems to help them cope. But very few individuals, civilized or otherwise would just naturally grow up and say - I think there's a spiritual realm out there. Those ideas are planted from others - and more prevelantly so in civilized-type societies.

    Neither can you discount the many that just didn't feel a spiritual, never felt a need to attribute things they didn't understand to the supernatural, and just simply weren't implanted with other's invented spiritual ideas. Many ancient greeks, Indians, Chinese, and others, from the dawn of their independent thinking, raised families without passing on the idea of the supernatural. These folks didn't question gods - but were rather questioned by other believers about their naturally inclined stance not to have any spirituality. Basically, without an implantation of invented supernatural ideas - "untheism" is a more natural state for humans, and appears to have been so for a long time both pre-civilization and often throughout civilization's rise.

    Nevertheless, the idea that many cultures did seem to invent supernatural explanations helps many accept their own beliefs passed on to them from others. Jehovah's Witnesses are among those as are probably many other believers. I heard that line of reasoning my whole life. I took a tour at the British Museum and it was constantly thrown out there, about these ancient civilizations and people with their belief systems and how Jesus words about ' "happy is he who is conscious of his spiritual need" rings true throughout history.' Some use the similar line of reasoning to justify their belief in the flood.

    The point is, when you look closer at history, it's just not a very accurate assesment. Not discounting the rise of religious belief with civilization - but claiming ALL people since the dawn of man ... that's more than a leap. I don't want this to wreck anyone's faith though. I enjoy belief systems and magic and studying up on all of them. I respect the anchor that such beliefs are to many people's morality. I think, as far as it concerns them personally, they should indulge it and use it to seek out their best self for the greater good of society. The world, including history, might be a more boring place if everyone believed the same thing about the supernatural.

  • d
    d

    This is true. religion has a had a big influence on how we as human beings see art and music.

  • d
  • NewChapter
  • d
    d

    Thank you Newchapter.

  • Phizzy
    Phizzy

    The points made by Just n. are interesting, I wonder though if the lack of evidence for belief from very early hunter-gatherers is actually proof of a lack of belief.

    Hunter-gatherers had little stability of dwelling, they moved with the herds, so little motivation to do a rock painting etc. but if they are similar to living tribes studied in the 19th and 20th centuries they probably had a very strong belief in the supernatural.

    This belief in the supernatural being almost universal in times past, may explain why the "God gene" is so persitently hanging on amongst the majority of Homo Sapiens, who if they were fully sapiens (wise), would have rejected the concept long ago.

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