Who Really is The Faithful and Discreet Slave?

by Recovery 207 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  Indian Larry

  I agree with a earlier poster who said the burden of proof is on the WTBTS not on the individual.

  Who the slave is I can not prove scripturally for two reasons:

  1. The bible does not say specifically who the slave is.

  2. Jesus names the slave AFTER his return. He has not returned. Has this happened?

  (Revelation1:7) Look! He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, and those who pierced him; and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief because of him. Yes, Amen.

  (Matthew 24:30) And then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in lamentation, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

  (Matthew 24:23-27) “Then if anyone says to YOU, ‘Look! Here is the Christ,’ or, ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24 For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will give great signs and wonders so as to mislead, if possible, even the chosen ones. 25 Look! I have forewarned YOU. 26 Therefore, if people say to YOU, ‘Look! He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out; ‘Look! He is in the inner chambers,’ do not believe it. 27 For just as the lightning comes out of eastern parts and shines over to western parts, so the presence of the Son of man will be.

  Did the society say to us: ‘Look! Here is the Christ,’? Yes.

  "Surely there is not the slightest room for doubt in the mind of a truly consecrated child of God that the Lord Jesus is present and has been since 1874." (Watchtower, Jan. 1, 1924, p5) Note that this is years after their "selection" and they are still teaching a lie

  (Watchtower April 1, 1923, p. 106) '1925 is definitely settled by the Scriptures...the Christian has much more

  upon which to base his faith than Noah had (so far as the Scriptures reveal) upon

  which to base his faith in the coming deluge'

  "A religion that teaches lies cannot be true." (Watchtower December 1, 1991 p7)

  Here are some other scriptures (all from NWT) that may help you understand the viewpoint of most of us on this board:

  (Luke 21:8) He said: “Look out that YOU are not misled; for many will come on the basis of my name, saying, ‘I am he,’ and, ‘The due time has approached.’ Do not go after them. ( The due time has approached is the WT mantra. Note that this is a COMMAND from Jesus. It carrys just as much weight as the command to Lot's wife not to turn back to Sodom. It should probably not be ignored)

  (2Thessalonians2:3-4) Let no one seduce YOU in any manner, because it will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness gets revealed, the son of destruction. 4 He is set in opposition and lifts himself up over everyone who is called “god” or an object of reverence, so that he sits down in the temple of The God, publicly showing himself to be a god.

  (1John4:1) Beloved ones, do not believe every inspired expression, but test the inspired expressions to see whether they originate with God, because many false prophets have gone forth into the world.

  (Jeremiah23:32) “Here I am against the prophets of false dreams,” is the utterance of Jehovah, “who relate them and cause my people to wander about because of their falsehoods and because of their boasting.” “But I myself did not send them or command them. So they will by no means benefit this people,” is the utterance of Jehovah.

  ***w81 5/1 p. 17*** "Let the honest-hearted person compare the kind of preaching of the gospel of the Kingdom done by the religious systems of Christendom during all the centuries with that done by Jehovah's Witnesses since the end of World World I in 1918. They are not one and the same kind"

  "True, there have been those in times past who predicted an "end" to the world, even announcing a specific date. Yet nothing happened. The 'end' did not come. They were guilty of false prophesying. Why? What was missing? Missing from such people were God's truths and the evidence that He was using and guiding them.'' (Awake, Oct. 8, 1968)

  1972 "Does this admission of making mistakes stamp them [Watchtower] as false prophets? Not at all, for false prophets do not admit to making mistakes." (Watchtower, Nov. 1, 1972, p. 644)

  Note: Any false prophet would have to admit that they made a mistake when what they predict does not come true. Admission of a making a mistake does not have anything to do with whether a prophet is a true prophet.

  There are 100's of examples of false prophecy. Jesus commanded us NOT to follow false prophets therefore he would NEVER have chosen false prophets to be his "faithful slave" If you want to know 100% who the slave is, wait until Christ's return and he will let everyone know. Anyone who makes that claim before his return is appointing themselves.
• 

  The Searcher

  Have you typed in 'slave' or 'slaves' into the Watchtower Library CD ROM, and examined the usage in the Greek Scriptures?

  It becomes very clear that everyone who exercises faith in the ransom, becomes a 'slave' of God & Christ.

  We are all accountable for what we do with the "talent".
• 

  binadub

  Hi Recovery:

  I haven't read all the responses to your good question, so I apologize if this has already been said.

  The answer is really simple. The Watchtower interprets Matt.24:45-51 as being a prophecy to be fulfilled. It is not a prophecy; it is a parable.
  A very similar parable follows in the very next chapter about a master who gives talents to slaves, and one invests wisely. Matt. 25:21 says: "Well done, good and trustworthy slave; ..." The Watchtower does not treat that parable as a prophecy.

  If you read the parable, it explains quite vividly that a faithful slave will be rewarded, but a slave that is not faithful will be severely punished.

  It's a parable about the wisdom of being faithful--for everyone. It's every Christian's responsibility to be faithful and discreet.

  ~Binadub
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  Recovery

  Ding said: It was Jesus' way of stressing the importance of ALL Christians being faithful to God rather than being wicked servants who lord it over others

  This argument was already pulled by sebastious and it horribly failed when these questions were asked:

  How is it that all of God's people provide spiritual food to each other?

  How is it that the FDS is about all faithful Christians yet they are appointed over all of Christ's belongings? How is every individual Christian placed over Christ's belongings?

  How could the FDS possibly be all faithful Christians when they are above the domestics? How could anyone be lower than the FDS since it represents all faithful Christians?

  Theocratic Sedition said: It's a parable, nothing more or less. Simply a thoughtful illustration depicting the responsibility of a Christian and the blessings that one will recieve for carrying out those responsibilities.

  I surely do not see how it is possible for every individual Christian to be given responsibility over all of Jesus' belongings, do you? Also your illustration does not fit within the context. Jesus is answering the question: "What will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things"? Therefore, nothing is rhetorical. He is answering a direct question. Everything is serious because this affects the lives of his disciples then and into the future. So thanks for the illustration, but it really doesn't hold much weight.

  Jeffro: If 'the faithful slave' 'must' have a 'modern fulfilment' because Jesus (allegedly) asked, "Who really is the faithful and discreet slave?"... then what is the Watch Tower Society's 'modern fulfilment' of Luke 10:29? 'Surely' Jesus 'must' have been 'identifying' a specific 'neighour' 'class' when he (allegedly) asked "Who really is my neighbor?"

  Well Luke 10 is not in reference to the question: "What will be the sign of your presence and the conclusion of the system of things"? That is a strawman argument which relates an illustration totally unrelated to the question that was asked and the response that was given, simply because it has the words "who really is..."

  Moshe said: Sounds like real people to me, like a vote was taken, orders given, right? Except, if you called up Bethel and inquired just who the F&DS were that arrived that this decision and issued the orders, they would never give you a single name. Just who really are these people?

  Well of course they are real people. I emphatically stated that the FDS is not a 'legal entity' as you somehow thought it was clever to point out. I still don't see the point of your argument, though. Maybe you should use some more pictures as you are not too good with words?

  mrsjone5: It's not my job to make you see or provide you with anything. If you wish to believe that the wt/bOrg have the truth and the fds spray are real, fine. I, my darling, don't really give a damn.

  Well this thread was created for those who can prove the JW's scripturally wrong. No one asked you to participate. You are just one of the many who have either refused (directly) or indirectly with unscriptural arguments to answer the original question. Moving on.

  DATA-DOG said: "Why don't YOU use a scripture to disprove what I have said, namely, " The faithful and discreet slave can be any INDIVIDUAL that follows Christ and teaches the TRUTH of God's word.". Matthew 24:45 "whom his master appointed over his domestics, to give them their food at the proper time? 47 He will appoint him over all his belongings." There cannot be countless millions and millions of individuals who are appointed over all of Christ's belongings. There cannot be countless millions and millions of individuals who are providing proper spiritual food at the proper time since Jesus said that "few are the ones finding it (the road to life"). It is beyond all logic and reason to say that this can be any individual Christian, when the parable calls for the existence of domestics as well. If all individual Christians are appointed over Christ's belongings, why aren't the domestics appointed over his belongings as well?

  Emery said: The real question is -- On what evidence or basis does the Watchtower Society have the right to claim that they are the Faithful and Discreet Slaves in which Jesus gave them all his belongings? Have you examined the evidence or explanation utilized by the Society for the greatest gift in mankind's history?

  Yes I have. If you'd like a thorough explanation of why JW's have the right to claim that the FDS is found among them then I suggest you research it using the Online Watchtower Library. Otherwise, if I get time I will make a post that explains why scripturally.

  LostGeneration said: But don't come around here trying to convice us to EAT SHIT, because 99.99% of us have already had our fill, and we aren't going to do it anymore, no matter how many sets of mental gymnastics you present.

  I am not trying to convince anyone to do anything. I asked you, the members of this board, to JW's and thus me scripturally wrong. If you cannot do so, it is not my problem. I understand there will be a lot of weeping and gnashing and lashing out at me because it cannot be done using the Bible only. Only the opinions of man can lead one to discredit JW's and this thread has thoroughly demonstrated that. Attack my character, call me a troll, whatever, it only proves my point that no one has ever been able to scripturally disprove JW's regarding this doctrine.

  Fernando said: In the end though you may find that you are best served by doing your own in-depth, prayerful, honest and in-depth research rather than relying on the words of ANY humans (the present company included).

  Of course, I have done this numerous times and it is why I believe Jehovah's Witnesses to be the only ones who are God's organization of people.

  (Psalm 146:3) . . .Do not put YOUR trust in nobles, Nor in the son of earthling man, to whom no salvation belongs.

  (Psalm 60:11) . . .As salvation by earthling man is worthless.

  I don't see how this disproves the FDS doctrine. Besides, by this ridiculous reasoning I should not trust what I read in the Bible. And if I were a first century Christian I shouldn't listen to the words of Paul or any of the brothers taking the lead since they are earthling man. Our salvation does not belong to the FDS, it is only through Jesus' sacrifice.

  Everything somewhat interesting on page 3 answered. Still no scriptural refutation of JW's doctrine.
• 

  mrsjones5

  Only because you refuse to see it. But folks will continue to play your game not for your benefit but for the luckers who know something is rotten in the state of Denmark and are truly searching for TTATT.

  Carry on...
• 

  Recovery

  sebastious said: Why did you ignore the videos? In the second video a scriptual reference is given as to why the FDS cannot be the Watchtower. Can you tell me what it is so I know you watched the video?

  I do not have the time nor the desire to watch apostate videos on Youtube. I've already done so in the past countless hours and it was a waste of time and a dissapointment since I was expecting the almighty exGilead graduate to actually set me straight scripturally. If there is a scriptural reference you believe that debunks the FDS doctrine, post it, and we will examine it.

  sir82 said: I will repeat the question: What is it, exactly, that makes you so sure it must be a prophecy, regardless of whether you think the "fulfillment" of that "prophecy was in the 1st or 21st century?

  The answer is in response to the question: "When will these things be, and what will be the sign of your presence and the conclusion of the system of things?" Jesus' response tells us when the things he's previously prophecied will be. To tell them when these things would be, he would have to be referencing something of a future connotation since these things had not yet taken place. Secondly, the Bible even demonstrates the fulfillment of this parable later which proves even further that this parable was also a prophecy.

  We do? Please provide evidence for this assertion. "We" don't know that.

  It is entirely unreasonable to expect me to prove the FDS doctrine, its fulfillment, how JW's fit the FDS today, and many other miscellaneous questions, and then take on the task of proving the parousia began in 1914. It can be done, but such a task would be immeasurably time consuming, and it would likely take this thread in a direction I don't want it to be in. The only suggestion I can give to you is to read the WT Publications regarding 1914. At a later time, I will prove it, but I simply do not have the time to do so right now.

  Fernando said:

  *** w09 10/15 p. 15 par. 14 “You Are My Friends” ***...obey the direction provided by the faithful and discreet slave class... A search for "slave class" in wt lib 2010 produces 870 hits!

  (James 2:4) . . .YOU have class distinctions among yourselves and YOU have become judges rendering wicked decisions. . . (doesn't disprove the FDS doctrine as there were clear distinctions between the congregational roles of 1st century Christians)

  (Matthew 23:8-11) . . .But YOU, do not YOU be called for one is YOUR teacher, whereas all YOU are brothers. 9 Moreover, do not call anyone YOUR father on earth, for one is YOUR Father, the heavenly One. 10 Neither be called ‘[Governing Body],’ for YOUR Leader is one, the Christ. 11 But the greatest one among YOU must be YOUR minister. (doesn't disprove the FDS doctrine as the apostles and other older men taught the first century Christians many things from the Bible)

  (John 14:26) . . .But the helper, the holy spirit, which the Father will send in my name, that one will teach YOU all things and bring back to YOUR minds all the things I told YOU. (Doesn't disprove the FDS doctrine as the FDS acknowledge the role of holy spirit in their understanding of the Bible)

  (1 John 2:27) . . .YOU do not need anyone to be teaching YOU. . . (does not disprove the FDS doctrine as John was in this very chapter teaching Christians about Christ and his sacrifice)

  (Hebrews 8:11) . . .And they will by no means teach each one his fellow citizen and each one his brother. . . (does not disprove FDS doctrine as Paul was teaching in that very chapter about how the high priest and the tabernacle foreshadow Jesus role as head of the congregation)

  I do not see any contradictions, but instead more scriptures taken out of context which do not disprove the FDS doctrine. But hey, AT LEAST FERNANDO USED SCRIPTURES!

  outsmartthesystem wrote: You are using unproven supposition as the premise from which to build your argument. YOU need to first prove that this scripture is prophetic in nature as opposed to merely being an unexplained parable. If that can be done.....then.....logically the debate can be had as to whom the prophecy should apply to.

  Fair enough. Since no one will use scriptures to disprove JW's, I will use the scriptures to prove that they are right, although the failure of 99% of the posters on this board to provide a scriptural refutation of JW's doctrine (which they already know quite well) already proves JW's right.

  KingSolomon said: You are VERY MISTAKEN on who bears the burden of proof here. It's NOT our burden to disprove their claim: it's up to THEM to quote scripture to PROVE that it's a prophecy pointing to the GB. They can't. That means they can "run their odd interpretation up the flagpole" all day long, but that doesn't mean anyone has to salute.

  They have already done so numerous times. There are dozens, perhaps hundreds of articles where they quote scripture to prove that it is so. The burden of proof is on those who oppose their viewpoint, since it is them who claim that JW's are wrong. You cannot claim someone is wrong, without proving that they are. Therefore the burden of proof rests on you, the members of this board. I am definitely not DJeggnog and you can ask the admins to prove that.

  Emery's post was a bunch of miscellaneous quotes from books that I do not have the time to verify/question and it was not a scriptural refutation anyway. Mere apostate rhetoric, as is so common on this board.

  Moshe again posted apostate rhetoric about an unrelated subject and did not scripturally prove JW's to be wrong.

  Indian Larry admits that he cannot prove who the slave is and thus cannot prove that the FDS isn't found among JW's since he doesn't know who it is. He said:

  Who the slave is I can not prove scripturally for two reasons:

  1. The bible does not say specifically who the slave is. (yes it does, I will show this in my next post)

  2. Jesus names the slave AFTER his return. He has not returned. Has this happened? (the scripture doesn't say he names them after his return, it says he pronounces them happy after his return)

  The rest, again, are quoted scriptures (yay!) but simply do not disprove JW doctrine. I can quote those scriptures to refer to the members of this board or the churches of Christendom as well.

  The Searcher said:

  Have you typed in 'slave' or 'slaves' into the Watchtower Library CD ROM, and examined the usage in the Greek Scriptures?(YES)

  It becomes very clear that everyone who exercises faith in the ransom, becomes a 'slave' of God & Christ. (CORRECT, but they do not become apart of 'THE FAITHFUL AND DISCREET SLAVE' which is entirely different from being an individual slave of Christ)

  We are all accountable for what we do with the "talent". (True)
• 

  EntirelyPossible

  Oh, good grief. If I believed in the Bible or Jesus, I would say Sabby's explanation makes as much sense as anything else. How would all Christians provide spiritual food to each other? By iron, iron is sharpened. Thus one man sharpens the face of another. People have different skills and all contribute.

  Sheesh....
• 

  rip van winkle

  Recovery said:

  Only the opinions of man can lead one to discredit JW's and this thread has thoroughly demonstrated that. Attack my character, call me a troll, whatever, it only proves my point that no one has ever been able to scripturally disprove JW's regarding this doctrine.

  I do not have the time nor the desire to watch apostate videos on Youtube. I've already done so in the past countless hours and it was a waste of time and a dissapointment since I was expecting the almighty exGilead graduate to actually set me straight scripturally. If there is a scriptural reference you believe that debunks the FDS doctrine, post it, and we will examine it.

  ==========================

  I'm not going to attack your character, or name call, nor will I attack your beliefs. You have a right to believe what you believe.

  I've been posting here for 2 months and do not, as a self-imposed rule, discuss scriptures- at this time. And I lurked here for a while before I ever posted.

  So, I am just curious why someone who so strongly believes that the F&DS is real and the WTS doctrine is correct has come here, if you don't have doubts?
• 

  Zordino

  They are a Bunch of Dellusional Wack Jobs pretending to be Christs Brothers.

  I hope thats clear enough.
• 

  Jeffro

  Jeffro went on a rant about there's barely evidence that Jesus ever existed and that the Bible isn't God's inspired word, but sadly no scriptural arguments given.

  Apparently my single brief statement about Jesus ("Aside from the fact that there's barely any evidence Jesus existed at all, and absolutely no evidence for anything attributed to him in the Bible") and my single brief statement about 'inspiration' ("There's no basis for the claim that the Bible is 'inspired', nor any clear definition of just what such 'inspiration' would constitute") is allegedly a 'rant'. And since there is no evidence that the Bible is 'inspired', why the hell would 'scriptural arguments' be needed in support??

  Jeffro, you can start a new thread proving your claims against the Bible's inspiration and I will engage in a discussion once my posting is no longer restricted.

  You clearly do not understand the concept of burden of proof. It is up to the person making a claim that something exists to prove that it does, not for others to disprove a negative. Aside from that, no actual definition for the supposed 'mechanism' for 'inspiration' has ever been offered, so there is no basis for any testable hypothesis.

  It's sad that this is the level of argumentation we're dealing with here. It is probably with good reason that you have a posting limit.