They will be DFing me soon for apostasy...

by RayPublisher 150 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  DATA-DOG

  @ Wontleave,

  I like your style. You are right about so much. I think RayPublisher has done his home work. I get what you are saying about theocratic terminology in our speech. I don't know what specific instances you are referring to with RayPublisher, but I know he is trying to appeal to Jw's in the early stages of waking up to TTATT so he words thing accordingly. I have an upcoming " meeting " because of expressing my views. I am now a person of interests, LOL!! You are right about some Elders being sociopaths. When they say AMEN for Jehovah's spirit on the meeting, the emotions shut off and the gloves come off. The GB and " Slave " worship takes hold. I will tell everyone what happens with me. Maybe you can give me some pointers, if I have my final confrontation some day. My mistake is that I was honest, nothing more. I have seen the true faces of some, even some that said they were my friends.
• 

  WontLeave

  The best advice I can give is stick to slam-dunks. Don’t get into grey areas where a lot leeway for opinion and doctrinal wiggle-room is available. Stick with things like the beard ban. I’m good at thinking on my feet, so when I argued with the elders, at first, I actually felt like God was putting words in my mouth. It’s like wrestling with a 10-year-old and gives the same feeling of superiority. I’ve written papers on a couple my favorite subjects. Some of the info in “Do Christians Have Human Leaders” is pretty helpful in an apostasy JC.

  Ultimately, when they lose all Scriptural arguments, their go-to stand is obedience to the hierarchy. I loved having this landmine waiting for them, because it’s one of my pet subjects and my main beef with JWs. Some point/counter point samples:

  P: Well, things might not be perfect in the organization, but it’s not your place to correct things.

  CP: Then why didn’t all Christians just stay in the Catholic Church? This religion was started by CT Russell because he saw some things that were wrong. He tried fixing things from within instead of adding to the sectarianism and you’re saying that’s wrong?

  P: Well, you just have to wait on Jehovah.

  CP: But the Bible is Jehovah talking and he already expressed his thoughts on the matter. Who you’re really telling me to wait on is a printing company. Are you saying Jesus was wrong to reject the Pharisees’ teachings in favor of the truth?

  P: He was Jesus. You’re not.

  CP: True, but Jesus’ followers were also not washing their hands to the elbow, even though it caused the Jewish leadership great anguish. Jesus demonstrated that his followers are not beholden to man-made rules with no Bible backing. Should I reject the freedom in Christ Paul talked about in favor of a man-made yoke? (Gal 2:4-5, 5:1)

  P: But Jehovah uses this organization and we must be submissive to his Holy Spirit being in charge of it.

  CP: Let me get this straight… God himself started Judaism and that was subject to deterioration into idolatry and blasphemy, to the point where righteous men all through the OT had to go against the grain to worship faithfully. Jesus Christ started Christianity and that decayed into the Catholic Church and people were burned at the stake for adhering to Scripture over dogma. Yet, CT Russell had the wisdom to start a religion that would just keep getting better and better? We have a 130-year history of obsolete “old light” that was right at the time, but Heaven help them if someone notices that a current teaching is wrong. Are you saying JWs have more of God’s Spirit and blessing than Jesus’ Christianity or Jehovah’s own Judaism to keep it clean?

  P: But God’s organization is like Israel coming out of Egypt, following imperfect men doing God’s will.

  CP: But I’m not trying to leave or I wouldn’t be here talking to you. Following Moses out of Egypt was a good thing. Bowing to the golden calf a few days later; not so good. I see the modern equivalent of a golden calf and won’t worship it - and I discourage you from worshiping it, too. Also, interesting you should bring up Moses, because the Watchtower loves that analogy for following men. Jesus talked about someone seating themselves in the seat of Moses… Who was that? Also, according to Acts 3:19-22, Moses is the precursor to Jesus, not to the Watchtower corporation.

  P: But Jesus appointed the fds to feed us.

  CP: So they say, but Jesus warned about following people who would come along and say “I am he”. (Mark 13:5-6) If you look at Mat 24, a slave can be either faithful or evil and there is no clear separation until Jesus’ return.

  P: But Jesus already returned and picked his faithful slave.

  CP: What happened to all the other stuff in Mat 24 that was supposed to happen first? If Jesus returned, why are we celebrating the Memorial? 1Cor 11:26 indicates the Memorial will cease upon Jesus’ arrival. (This is a touchy one unless you’re ready to get into a whole thing about a “third coming” and call them out on word games and blatant denial.)

  There is a lot of more basic rejection of human leaders in my paper, so you might want to take a look at that for some verses I especially like for refuting most Christianity-based high-control groups with a magisterium. One thing you'll have to be ready to expect is them flying in the face of rationality and throwing you out just for being right and they're afraid you're going to ruin everything they've lied so hard to build. But it will be obvious in your recording for all to see. Do not enter that room without a recording device running. Many cell phones and mp3 players have audio recorders that will run for hours or days on a charge; use them or you're wasting your time going into the kangaroo court. Standing up for your beliefs has its own rewards and seeking glory before men its own. You have to know which you desire, going in.
• 

  WontLeave

  tinyurl.com/5vqyd9c is the URL. Don't know why the link is weird.
• 

  RayPublisher

  @Data-Dog - You said: I know he is trying to appeal to Jw's in the early stages of waking up to TTATT so he words thing accordingly.

  That is exactly why I word things using "theocratic language"- the whole point of me going through this sham-trial is to expose them as many awakening JWs as possible.

  @WontLeave - Some excellent points in your comments and in the paper- thanks.
• 

  Elephant

  wont leave-

  P: Well, things might not be perfect in the organization, but it’s not your place to correct things.

  CP: Then why didn’t all Christians just stay in the Catholic Church? This religion was started by CT Russell because he saw some things that were wrong. He tried fixing things from within instead of adding to the sectarianism and you’re saying that’s wrong?

  the use of the word 'might' does not concede that it is...

  P: But Jesus already returned and picked his faithful slave.

  CP: What happened to all the other stuff in Mat 24 that was supposed to happen first? If Jesus returned, why are we celebrating the Memorial? 1Cor 11:26 indicates the Memorial will cease upon Jesus’ arrival. (This is a touchy one unless you’re ready to get into a whole thing about a “third coming” and call them out on word games and blatant denial.)

  -For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.

  ... i dont see a 'commandment' that states you must stop when he comes. again...you are interpreting a scripture to suit your logic...not much different from us...whom you 'call out' for doing so...

  P: But Jesus appointed the fds to feed us.

  CP: So they say, but Jesus warned about following people who would come along and say “I am he”. (Mark 13:5-6) If you look at Mat 24, a slave can be either faithful or evil and there is no clear separation until Jesus’ return.

  -again...you are interpreting scripture...not much different from what P: states.

  P: But God’s organization is like Israel coming out of Egypt, following imperfect men doing God’s will.

  CP: But I’m not trying to leave or I wouldn’t be here talking to you. Following Moses out of Egypt was a good thing. Bowing to the golden calf a few days later; not so good. I see the modern equivalent of a golden calf and won’t worship it - and I discourage you from worshiping it, too. Also, interesting you should bring up Moses, because the Watchtower loves that analogy for following men. Jesus talked about someone seating themselves in the seat of Moses… Who was that? Also, according to Acts 3:19-22, Moses is the precursor to Jesus, not to the Watchtower corporation.

  -'i see a modern equivalent'.. you are assuming that your interpretation is the correct one...

  P: But Jehovah uses this organization and we must be submissive to his Holy Spirit being in charge of it.

  CP: Let me get this straight… God himself started Judaism and that was subject to deterioration into idolatry and blasphemy, to the point where righteous men all through the OT had to go against the grain to worship faithfully. Jesus Christ started Christianity and that decayed into the Catholic Church and people were burned at the stake for adhering to Scripture over dogma. Yet, CT Russell had the wisdom to start a religion that would just keep getting better and better? We have a 130-year history of obsolete “old light” that was right at the time, but Heaven help them if someone notices that a current teaching is wrong. Are you saying JWs have more of God’s Spirit and blessing than Jesus’ Christianity or Jehovah’s own Judaism to keep it clean?

  -if we implied this, how could you prove otherwise?

  P: He was Jesus. You’re not.

  CP: True, but Jesus’ followers were also not washing their hands to the elbow, even though it caused the Jewish leadership great anguish. Jesus demonstrated that his followers are not beholden to man-made rules with no Bible backing. Should I reject the freedom in Christ Paul talked about in favor of a man-made yoke? (Gal 2:4-5, 5:1)

  -absolutely you should not reject stated freedom. but you are still not Jesus.

  P: Well, you just have to wait on Jehovah.

  CP: But the Bible is Jehovah talking and he already expressed his thoughts on the matter. Who you’re really telling me to wait on is a printing company. Are you saying Jesus was wrong to reject the Pharisees’ teachings in favor of the truth?

  -what is it that you are asking to wait for?
• 

  WontLeave

  @Elephant: The difference between arguing with a JW and wrestling with a 10-year-old is the 10-year-old will realize he's losing.

  Bait not taken.

  Troll on alone.

  As I already stated, convincing JWs that they're insane is sometimes a fruitless endeavor. Thus, the need to use a recording device, so other, less-brain-dead people can benefit from the event. A great scene from the movie "Thank You for Smoking" depicted a father demonstrating his debating skills to the son. When the son denied the father had made any inroads with his arguments, the father, indicating an audience of onlookers said " I'm not after you. I'm after them." It's the same with Mormons, evangelicals, Scientologists, Muslims, republicans, democrats, people with an inordinate amount of national pride, etc. Many are too far gone to grasp simple concepts. Even if they do get it, they're not going to admit it right in front of their elder buddies. Or, they already realize it's a sham and they're just in it for the glory and power over other people. …that and the dirty confessions from the less-prudish sisters.

  Let's face it, how much more excitement can you get as a part-time construction worker with barely a high-school education and room-temperature IQ? As a JW elder, not only do you get to beat your wife and kids, you get to tell other wives and kids to suck it up and take their beatings for "Jehovah". You get to dress up a few times a week like you're not a total retard loser, even if your suit is polyester and ill-fitting. Under the "headship" facade, you get all the oral and anal from your wife you want without giving anything back, and you get to tell other wives to take it like the second-class citizen she is, for her "husbandly owner" and "Jehovah". Not only do you get to talk about people behind their backs and quietly judge them, but you get to accuse them and judge them right to their faces and they'll thank you for it while begging for your forgiveness. You get to hear all the juiciest gossip, which is about the only entertainment a "true Christian" seems to be allowed.

  I'm under no illusion JW elders are "mostly good people just trying to help their brothers". I realized long ago they're mostly either very stupid and fall for the glory before men manipulation or they're sociopaths looking for thrills at others' expense. The former are willingly woefully ignorant, so they can be told anything is "for Jehovah" and can be duped into evil deeds by sociopaths above them. The latter just wish they were the sociopaths at the top and crave more power over more people, but will take whatever they can get. Perhaps there was a time this was not the case, but it must have been before I was around. For these elders, reason and truth won't remove their beliefs because reason and truth didn't put them there.
• 

  Elephant

  @Elephant: The difference between arguing with a JW and wrestling with a 10-year-old is the 10-year-old will realize he's losing.

  -did we just revert to hissy fits?
• 

  OPUSDEI

  Hi Ray, two weeks ago, two elders visited me, so I told to them that I will not attend the meetings anymore until the governing body stop lying about the Watchtower history. I told them that I discovered that Rutherford was a false prophet and a drunken, so this fact affect what the truth about 1935. I also said to the elders that the doctrine of the blood fractions is a double standard so the governing body is in serious guilt before God. They told me that I should write a letter of resignation, but I said that I will not do that, but I suggested them to disfellowship me for appostasy, but they told me that they could not do that because they have to apply the due procedures. One of the elders told me that he will consider me his brother always, but the other one wanted to leave my house as soon I say a word against the goberning body, this elder is very fanatic, and the former is more christian. .....well, I don't know what will they do against me, but It seems that they will do nothing for now. I think they believe that I am crazy.
• 

  RayPublisher

  @OPUSDEI - I have found that to be the case Bro- one elder will behave as a Christian, and the very next one will be an arrogant judgmental jerk.

  Forest Gump said "You never know what you're gonna get" and that applies when dealing with these asleep JW elders.
• 

  clarity

  Ray thanks for starting this thread.

  It has produced a whole lot of valuable insight!

  >

  I have used scripture regarding the memorial ending when

  christ comes, only to be shot down by the jw answer that

  he did come in 1914 .... buuuut when he comes again at the

  very end is when... blabla.

  So simple isn't it .... scripture does not say comes AGAIN!

  Thanks Elephant for that eye opener!

  >

  Thanks Wont, for all the great points that you made

  clarity