Conti update article: "Watchtower Loses Conti Appeal - But Fights On"

by cedars 147 Replies latest watchtower child-abuse

  • Scott77
    Scott77

    With the exception of Mr. 144001 and few ones, I highly doubt everyone on this site understand what JNOV means or stand for. .-Scott77

    When someone describes the vast majority of folks on this site as being ignorant, I will respond... the picture you paint of the "majority" of folks on this forum is not a flattering one, and I find it to be offensive.- 144001

    Mr.144001, please, calm down. By stating in part,' With the exception of Mr. 144001 and few ones..' It was out of difference to your legal wisdom to exclude you but in no way was this intended as an attack to your character. You do not have to feel offended. You are not part of those who have difficulties understanding what JNOV stands for. This is not a legal forum. Since you are an exception including a few others [BOTN], I find it highly questionable as to why you feel that. Mr. Cedar's headlines has some susbtance. Shooting it down by outright dismissal as being entirely misleading without acknowledging that substance or the intent of its display was very troubling and uncalled for. I stand by what I stated. No apology.

    Scott77

  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run

    Someone is now intentionally misleading which is far worse than being misinformed. There has been legal clarification. Opinions are possible. Mind Blown or whatever was rude. Anyone who doubts it is free to read the record. Aren't we all on the same page here? We want the WT to modify its two witness rule and when it has clear notice of a pedophile in a KH, we want the WTBTS to notify the publishers and others. The person should not be allowed to have any interaction with children. The authorities have the competence, not the WT, to investigate the complaint. Christ cared for children and adults. Any unfairness to an accused pedophile, not convicted, is a temporary measure. The legal process has safeguards so if the accused is not convicted, he can be restored to his former position. In a fair world, that showed Jehovah was in any control, such moves would not be necessary. Small children should not be forced to bear the risk,whichi s statistically overwhelming. Pedophiles repeat their crimes more than any other group of criminals. Rend Caesar's things to Caesar. State legislature after state legilature is imposing mandatory reporting duties. Under CA law at the present time, there would be no doubt that the WT had a legal duty. As much as I dislike the WT, I believe the WT has a point about whether a legal duty existed at the time of ithe incident. Clearly, a moral and theological duty existed. Common law courts rarely make law anymore. It is preferable to have a legislature, elected by the people, establish new laws rather than an individual trial judge. Anway, a WT win on appeal is unlikely to receive the publicity that the jury verdict did. The jury sent a signal on behalf of the larger community that religion cannot harbor criminals and that even religion has a duty to children. The First Amendment is not a bar to enforcement of pedophile laws. One would expect that God's organization would have higher standards than a legal duty. Why would anyone want to be part of a religion that favored criminals over the interests of vulnerable children? Most of the issues involved in this case are taught in mandatory first year classes. This is not legal rocket science. Procedural issues exist in any legal case, whether criminal, contractual, or torts. Basically, the issues are civil procedural ones. Give peace a chance,

  • Scott77
    Scott77

    "...As much as I dislike the WT, I believe the WT has a point about whether a legal duty existed at the time of ithe incident..."
    Band on the Run

    BOTR,

    Iam not an attorney but this does not prevents me from expressing an opinion.The Watchtower's claim that it did not have a legal duty to report a claim is totally inexcusable based on indisputable fact that a crime against child was committed by an appointed authority of religion, thus establish a factual, structural link betwen the abuser and his bosses. What is more troubling is that the Watchtower was implicated in the cover-up suggesting that it was preventing the crime from becoming a public knowleddge.

    Scott77

  • wannabefree
    wannabefree

    BOTR ... could the Organization be considered to have a fiduciary duty to protect the members of the congregation even though they may not have had a legal duty to report the crime ... just wondering if fiduciary would apply or is that not applicable?

  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run

    Scott, You simply don't understand the legal issues. Wrongs may be committed and they are not necessarily illegal. You expect a causal relationship between justice and the law. I once believed that the law upheld the just. The law primarily upholds the established status quo. The WT situation is complicated because a publisher/person who studies is not an official of the WT. The WT proclaims it has no ministers. (of course, next they claim pentinent clergy privilege). As CA law existed at the time of the incident, it is not clear that they had any legal duty to warn the congregation.

    The fact that the legislature subsequently enacted a law that would mandate that church officials must notify the authorities can lead one to conclude that no legal duty existed. Many years ago common law courts changed the law. IN fact, if I recall correctly, the major cases involved the highest appellate court finding a new duty. Trial courts conduct trials by applying the law, procedure, and court rules. Appellate courts determine what the law is. If the jury does not correct findings of law by the judge, an appellate court will reverse the verdict.

    No one is arguing that the WT is correct. They are clearly wrong by any human measure. Whether or not there failure to act (as opposed to actually committing pedophilia) is cause for liability is a very different issue. It is unfair to make someone due something to comply with a law when they have no notice what the law is. This is a powerful argument against Conti's position.

    I have repeatedly said that I have not read the CA cases. The appeals court will apply CA law, not a moral sense of justice. I decided to go to law school because of my mom's experience as a JW. Sometimes law is just. Law basically favors the powerful. I had a chance to work for poverty agencies in college and then govt. and corporate law after law school. The difference in available resources and talent is stunning. My personal view is that true justice is rarely done.

    When I worked on Wall Street, I never felt corrupted b/c I represented one massive corporation fighting another massive corporation. The playing field was level. If I ever represented a corporation screw an individual (which does happen), I would find something else to do. One can say that they support Conti and acknowledge that the WT has decent appellate grounds. Besides, I expect with so much money at stake, they would appeal anyway. When I read the appellate grounds for the WT in the documents, they are not zany or reckless. They have a point. Personally, I would like the jury verdict to stand b/c that would equate to justice in my view.

    We are talking about legal issues here, not who has the moral or correct position. I don't see anyone here disputing that Conti has the moral high ground or that a Conti win would be just. If I had a Ca client, any client, though, I would want them to know what their liability could be.

  • 144001
    144001

    Scott,

    What you "stand" for is the publication of false statements. You find "substance" in lies. We are very different people who will never agree, inasmuch as truth and credibility are a priority to me, but they are not so important to you. I don't believe in the "ends justifies the means" philosophy.

  • 144001
    144001

    <<<< .and you're blind idiot. Makes no difference anyway as your anger issues rule your day. How about that cocktail now >>>>

    Mind Blown,

    You're not exactly blessed with vision, and your intellect . . . well, we'll keep this peaceful. Have a good evening.

  • Paralipomenon
    Paralipomenon

    Legally liable or not, wasn't this a civil case?

    O.J. Simpson was found innocent criminally, but liable in the civil case.

    In a criminal case i'm sure they would be found innocent because they didn't actually break the law, but in the civil case they were found liable for the abuse since the elders, following Bethel legal guidelines chose to monitor the situation themselves rather than turn it over to the authorities.

    While claiming to "keep an eye" on the brother, he was allowed to go in service alone with Candice which is where many of the incidents occured. The Watchtower never should have taken responsibility for policing the actions of a confessed pedophile if they didn't have the means to effectively monitor him. The abuse also occured within a church sanctioned setting.

    They took responsibility for preventing a pedophile from reoffending and opted not to inform the police or the congregation. Mr. Simmons showed that the local elders have zero influence in legal decisions such as this and that they were appointed by the Watchtower and followed directions of Watchtower legal. It was Watchtower policy that failed Candice (as well as another girl) and it opened them up to financial liability when he reoffended.

    The judge and jury seemed to agree.

  • AnnOMaly
    AnnOMaly

    One thing needs to be made clear, I think. The issue of reporting to the authorities was not a factor in the case that ended up being presented to the jury. Kendrick's wife and step-daughter did the reporting anyway.

    What the elders and WTS fell down on was, after knowing that Kendrick molested his step-daughter and after recognizing that it was indeed sexual abuse, there was no policy in place to either monitor his association with children in the congregation themselves or warn the parents (who, according to the WTS's own articles on the subject, are the 'first line of defense' in protecting their children). They did nothing, and a child got harmed. For that reason, they failed in their duty of care and were found to be negligent. Reporting or not reporting to the authorities didn't come into it for this case.

  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run

    Ann,

    I stand partially corrected. Nevertheless, if there was no requirement at law that a policy be in place, there is no liability. The legalities have been explained. Further debate is useless. The law at the time of the incident matters. My understanding is that there was no case law or stattue that detailed such a duty. There may be means of overcoming it. I don't know. It is crazy to assert that the WT has no appeal grounds. k

    This reminds me of the presidential campaigns. People have made up their minds already. You need a law, not just gut revulsion. This case already has established gut revulsion. The media publicized it. The highest appellate court in CA will decide. This forum will not decide. The mandatory reporting statute that now exists shows a heightened level of responsibility for churches. The new law makes certain that First Amendment religious association does not negate notice to authroities.

    Besides, I find it troubling, indeed, if the govt. dictated to any religion what it must do anymore than it is absolutely necessary. So the CA statute is revelant. I have not read all the dcouments. It cannot be dismissed. The present statute clearly decides to protect childkren rather than protect the autonomy of churches in one aspect. One should also be aware that in America, contrasted with almost all Western democracies, religion is almost sancrosanct. CA has carved out an exception to the religious protection.

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