Conti update article: "Watchtower Loses Conti Appeal - But Fights On"

by cedars 147 Replies latest watchtower child-abuse

  • metatron
    metatron

    Band, I just wanted to thank you for your posts here, in providing professional opinion on the matter at hand. It's obvious that there is a lot of emotion behind the contentions expressed here. It can be tiring....

    I want to see the WTS go down in flames with GB members hung by their heels in public disgrace and I rejoiced at the Conti decision. Unfortunately, I can see that there may be serious problems with it and a reversal is possible.

    OTOH, even if it fails ultimately, it will still likely encourage more cases to weaken the Theocratic Thugs and that's good.

    metatron

  • Scott77
    Scott77

    For a lawyer of his status, I really find John's wholesale attack on Cedar' headline as very troubling. I know cedar's headline was unintentionally posted yet it contained some substance, a point John deliberately overlooked. When I challenged John on that, he misinterpreted it as an attack on his character. His 'lawyering' if any status notwithstanding, John was not even ashamed to say he was offended then went on compare me to the the evil and murderous Watchtower. Regardless of his legal knowledge,the manner in which he 'shoot down' Cedar's headline did not go well with me. John, you have to be put on notice once again, this is not a legal forum. And in between, your claim to being offended is superfluous and devoid of any sincerity to say the least. You are not part of that majority. Anyway, mind blown, thanks for your sincerely humility and candor in apologizing to Ms BOTR . To this date, I will never understand the mind of an attorney. My sympathy with Ms BOTR is that, she is taking pain killer, and is she is fighting a long battle with a very debilitating and chronic pain. With the death of our beloved and very charming Ooompa still fresh in our mind,I think, its kinda of us to tread very gently on those that have joined the JWN forum hoping to receive love, solace, embrace, support and encouragement on their long road to recovery. And blondie, thanks alot for sharing with us your previous struggle with suicide. Your substantial contributions to this day has helped and continue to help many. You will forever be tenderly loved and remembered. Scott77

  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run

    I am NOT in pain now. The vast majority of time I have no pain. I would hope that this is a forum that welcomes knowledge of all sorts. A place where all are respected (Well, there a few who talk with God and try to convert others who do get on my nerves. Also, people who just copy and paste-as though they gods that we must obey.) I think the medium is most of the problem. If we were actually interacting with each other, we might be a little more careful about our interactions.

    I am volunteering for Obama, calling people who are persuadable. When I was young, I had such fervor and struggle to get the correct party line. Now, I feel it is insulting to convert people to my view. Other people are highlighting talking points, even tho they have no clue what the person we are calling is interested in or what that person supports. What a drag it is getting old! Did I quote Mick correctly?

    I know I am sorely tried by people attacking me, with no reason. You don't like my legal analysis. Fine, I don't like it either. Reality exists.

    My status here may not be great but may I suggest that we all stop doing a play by play concerning who insulted whom. I want to focus on ways to pressure the WT to stop the two-witness rule and protect children. Certainly, the WT had moral duties that exist whether or not the laws make them liable. So much of the WT actions across a broad spectrum is just spite. We are special. YOu can't bind us. Yet country after country asserts they can not do whatever they want. An example in point - during the Viet Nam war, the number of pioneer hours always equalled the amount the Selective Service required for a ministerial exemption.

    Perhaps it is valid for a religion to now bow to worldly authority - even tho Jesus expressly said to do so. There is a long tradition around the world of people going to prison or suffering consequences for what they believe. God should have rules that are not dependent on liability rules. Their attitude enrages me. I lose self control b/c I want someone to show them their place. Children are not garbage. Sexual abuse is not confined to certain moments in time. The consequences for the child last at least a lifetime.

  • Pistoff
    Pistoff

    BOTR said:

    Certainly, the WT had moral duties that exist whether or not the laws make them liable. So much of the WT actions across a broad spectrum is just spite. We are special. YOu can't bind us.

    Well said. It sickens me when the WT and any other religion (even if they hide behind their corporate identities) tries to evade the MORAL responsibility and legal liabilities when it comes to pedophiles.

    It is revolting to me that the law is leading the churches out of a moral crisis, that the law has had to drag the Catholic Church, WT and others into court to make then behave in a moral and responsible manner.

    The law, after all, the government, something the WT routinely bashes.

    And yes, the WT especially has the attitude that they are special, that they won't change for anyone; I have a family member who knows high ups at Bethel and that is their attitude; We Will Not Change for any man.

    Let's hope a few huge payouts will change their attitude.

  • Scott77
    Scott77

    The WT situation is complicated because a publisher/person who studies is not an official of the WT...
    Band on the Run

    With respect to Conti's ongoing court case, I do not see any party Conti or Jonathan Kendrick befiting the above statement from Ms. BOTR.

    Scott77

  • Vidiot
    Vidiot

    Pistoff: Let's hope a few huge payouts will change their attitude.

    No way, especially now; Old Man Jaracz's legacy.

  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run

    Well, once again a legal whatever surfaces. The WT has claimed in another case (I believe Unthank) that rank and files members are not Jehovah's Witnesses. The law of agency is involved. An employer can be liable for the actions of an employee through master/servant liability (it developed during feudal times). There are specific elements. I personally feel this is a weak link for the Witnesses b/c of all the control from Bethel. The pedophile database in Brooklyn shows how much they control the situations in the KH. Why anyone would just collect a registry of pedophiles, minus any pragmatic action, seems crazy. Clearly, they had notice. I've noticed when I skim through WT cases that, depending on the circumstances, they assume total control over members or they pretend the KHs are autonomous. If you are autonomous on the ground, why would anyone call Bethel Legal from a public phone that cannot be traced. If you have NO liability, what does it matter if the advice is written? Again, they do not share common values of humanity. Is society supposed to just listen to a self-described "reality" or look to the facts. Once upon a time, I respected their neutrality. I assert, however, that true neutrality means no police protection, no highways, no harbors, no airports, no postal service, no public hospitals, no fire services, etc. In other words, a Stone Age setting with total chaos. If Christ appeared at any prediction date, it might make sense. Government is bad. Lawyers are bad. The WT pays Bethelites to go to law school. Right now, Conti wins even if she loses a technicality. I always heard them make fun of stubborn Jews. As long as the GB is not personally threatened, there is no empathy for the difficulties individuals face.

  • kepler
    kepler

    I don't believe this has come for some time, particularly in this context.

    In 1953 the President of the WTBTS, along with officers who would later constitute the governing board, travelled to Scotland to testify in court in behalf of a ministerial servant Douglas Walsh who was pleading for exemption from national service. The court records, similar to those for the Contin case, are available on line. Affixed to the PDF I located ( 99 megabytes) is an excerpt from the 1954 Yearbook, beginning on page 133, describing the intent of the appearance of the officers. Beginning on page 133:

    -----

    MORE ACTION ON THE LEGAL FRONT

    In 1953 it was determined that a test case should be prepared to establish whether the Society was a religious organization and whether it regular ministers. The purpose was to meet the unfair situation whereby the conscription laws providing exemption for regular ministers of religion were being construed in such a manner as to deny Jehovah's witnesses the benefit of such laws. The man selected had to meet many qualifications, personal, ministerial, official, narrow age limit, and, of course, he had to be one who had been called upon to register for national sevice. Douglas Walsh of Dunbarton, Scotland, was eventually chosen, he being both a pioneer and a congregation overseer. By the close of 1953 plans were completed and strategy laid for the test case in Scotland. The aim was to determine legally whether Jehovah's witnesses were a religious organization and whether pioneer and congregation overseer Douglas Walsh was a regular minister. In January 1954, a preliminary hearing in Edinburgh detrminate that Walsh had a relevant case and Lord Strachan ordered it to go to proof. The case was set down for November 23, 1954.

    The Watch Tower Society's vice president, F. W. Franz, from the Brooklyn Headquarters was first ot go into the witness box. He outlined from the Bible the beliefs of Jehovah's witneses, especially those that differed from orthodox religions. Then Hayden Covington dealt with the organization, ceremonies and practices. Grant Suiter, secretary-treasurer of the Society, covered the finances of the Society and showed that contributions from the literature distribution did not meet the cost of the worldwide missionary work and that voluntary contributions of Jehovah's witnesses themselves made up the difference. ... Douglas Walsh described his work as a pioneer and congregation overseer. The whole of the evidence took seven days to present and covered 762 pages of manuscript.

    ----

    The situation here reminds me of an incident in a local hospital several years ago. A man who was admitted as a patient was put under sedation for mania. While still under the effect of either his mania or the prescription, he confronts the staff on the floor where he is interned and demands to be released. The head of the staff tells him he can not be released until a doctor signs a release form. The patient become angry and violent. He is restrained by two orderlies - and somehow they fall down an elevator shaft killing the staffworkers.

    The hospital sues the patient.

    In this case, the WT in a foreign court several decades back develops an elaborate case to equate their ministerial staffs as the equivalent of other religious clergies. The court in Scotland examines the claims and find them insufficient in the face of the stipulations they placed on national service (vs. those in the United States). The court concedes that WTBTS represents a legitimate religion, but will not give an exemption from national service that will cover the bulk of the congregations of kingdom halls.

    Flash forward to the present day and tables are turned. In the US, the claims of the WTS are taken more seriously by the state and prior to the case appearing before the jury, no effort has been made to diminish the WTS claims about ministerial servant equivalency. Believe me, I have got that much correspondence from the students.

    Now we have a situation equivalent to the patient and the orderlies falling down the elevator shaft and the counsel for defense begins to claim that there never were any of those ministers around here anyway, just rank and file people.

    Now would the history of ministerial appointment be a significant matter to contemplate as responsibility to notify the state is examined?

  • Scott77
    Scott77

    If I recall, the Watch Tower Society's vice president, F. W. Franz, from the Brooklyn Headquarters also lied on record for the first time, stating that Jehovah's Witnesses have to lie or something to that effect.....that even to this day, is still very embrassing.

    Scott77

  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run

    They called it "theocratric warfare." Basically, Franz and I believe another officer stated while on the witness stand and under oath that they would lie in court to protect the society. See Ten Commandments. Two thoughts came to me this evening. It is manifestly in the best legal and general interests of the WT to protect children and find another interpretation or exclusion to the two witness rule. They are making up the rule out of their minds. No where in the Bible does it say to put children at risk. In this case, who was Kendricks anyway to warrant the litigation fees, damages, and horrendous publicity around the world? The Roman Catholic Church has changed its tune (even if some practices have not changed). They fail to grasp their best interests. Screw Conti and others. From a business viewpoint, protecting children makes sense. No doctrine or policy was at stake that Kendricks championed. They did not select him as a test case. No, insist on your purity and correctness even tho you end up in your own grave, a grave dug by your own hands. I can't believe third party lawyers would give such legal advice as to stick by the two-witness rule. Their world is so small b/c they separate themselves from good humanity that they cannot see self-interest when it bites them. So even if they have a different moral take (which triggers me severely b/c I suffered as a child for their giving society the finger. A five year old is not ready to grasp flag salute or why the child is not worth a Christmas party or birthday gift. These are adult decisions that should not be imposed on children)), the WT is screwing itself. And based on countless Armageddon predictions and prophecy interpretations that are ever changing and whimsical, should anyone die from the blood doctrine or child be abused to bolster their current interpretation. History proves that there will inevitably be a different interpretation next week or next month.

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