Jwfacts, Why Do You Equate Miracles With Magic?

by Recovery 398 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • jwfacts
    jwfacts

    Great to see you comment Etude, especially when you only average 20 a year. You should comment more, as your insight is invaluable. " what powers them is the same: energy . " Very pertinent

    KS - miragic / magicles - Since this thread specifically was regarding a comment about Moses and Aaron, your input regarding Moses being schooled in and using an Egyptian magical trick is also insightful.

    The Watchtower has taken all the magic out of their religion, excuse the pun. Ritual and spiritual powers were part of both the Old Testament and New Testament Early Christianity. The WTS is a secular religion, which is a shame. They miss the beauty of religious ritual. Ironically, in an attempt to be secular, they try to make mythology like a global flood scientific.

  • Recovery
    Recovery

    I was thinking about responding to certain points but then I again I doubt anyone is still paying attention 8 days later.

  • EndofMysteries
    EndofMysteries

    I will say the casting of lots always bothered me as being magic. It would be great to be able to cast lots today and get direct yes or no answers from God lol.

  • Retrovirus
    Retrovirus

    I was thinking about responding to certain points but then I again I doubt anyone is still paying attention 8 days later

    Is that the theocratic way of saying "you win?"

  • King Solomon
    King Solomon

    From a question on wedding bands:

    ***w721/15p.63QuestionsfromReaders***

    Even if it were a fact that pagans first used wedding rings, would that rule such out for Christians? Not necessarily. Many of today’s articles of clothing and aspects of life originated in pagan lands. The present time divisions of hours, minutes and seconds are based on an early Babylonian system. Yet, there is no objection to a Christian’s using these time divisions, for one’s doing so does not involve carrying on false religious practices.

    Magic clearly has pagan roots, is associated with religious practice even to this day, AND is specifically denounced in the Bible.

    So why are SOME "magical elements" in toys acceptable (per 1994 AWAKE!), considered as a conscience matter? If JWs are concerned with pure worship TO YHWH, they should "walk the walk".

  • EndofMysteries
    EndofMysteries

    Wedding cake, wedding dress, wedding ring, the saving the top of the cake for the next year, those are pagan rituals. That's what they made me wonder why pick and choose? No the wedding itself but all the pagan aspects of it.

  • King Solomon
    King Solomon

    Yeah, their explanation is that pagan wedding practices are OK, since they're currently not associated with false religious practices.

    But by that same logic, magic IS associated with false religious practices (Satanism, voodoo, etc), and IS specifically denounced in the Bible, yet playing with toys that contain "magical elements" IS deemed a conscience matter? Even if it borders on idolatry?

    Granted, Sparlock the Wizard was the easy case to demonstrate (verboten, as it's 100% magic), but why allow ANY % of "magical elements"?

    Better safe than sorry, right?

  • never a jw
    never a jw

    Recovery,

    Of all the articles in JW Facts, why is the "magic versus miracle" problem the one you chose to attack??? It seems that the more important articles in JW facts, which demonstrate by quoting directly from the WTS publications the arrogance, deception, inconsistency, hypocrisy and manipulative tactics of the WTS, are too strong for you to attack. Am I wrong? Despite the weakness of your argumentation, and the overwhelming stregth of the counterarguments, I will be extremely generous and give you this as your victory. Can you defend the WTS in the rest of the articles in JW Facts. I am anxious to see those threads.

  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run

    Neither miracles nor magic exist in reality for most educated people. Miracles involve supernatural means as do magic. God can work through normal life. I doubt the Jesus miracles in the gospel narrative. Firstly, if true, hundreds of millions would have converted and folowed him, making his ministry impossible. Rather than someone not mentioned in the historical record, he would truly have been Jesus Christ, Superstar. I studied his healing ministry extensively when I was ill. Jesus seems to do wonders for psychosomatic illness. Save Lazarus, and if Lazarus existed post-resurrection, he would have been a mega Superstar, too, crossing national boundaries.

    The Jews claimed Jesus used magic. Miracles or magic is in the eye of the beholder.

    Like all JWs, you are severely limited by lack of exposure to world cultures and the world itself.

    Miracles abound in all religions.

    Most of the Jesus narrative, a divine being at birth with special godly parentage yet human, a dying and rising God, miracles are essential parts of most Middle Eastern religions. These motifs exist in Native American, Egyptian, Greek, and Roman mythology. They are also present in Asian religions.

    Someone with any knowledge would see this pattern and see Jesus as part of a human collective consciousness or conforming to certain myth patterns. It need not lessen his role. Jesus is merely the expression that surfaced in our present civilization. Many of these other "gods" predated Jesus by many years. OUr belief in Jesus is culturally determined. Psychological and social reasons chose this particular brand of Christianity.

    Other Christians, with just as valid claims to determine what is Christian, did not endorse the Western view.

    If Jesus is true, where we live should not matter. Jesus is not specific to Jews. If true, Jesus should be universal rather than Western based.

  • lisavegas420
    lisavegas420

    Great thread.

    I've always thought prayers were very much the same as a spell.

    Don't forget the magic word, "Amen" to seal the deal.

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