by Recovery 398 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
As its known mythological story telling can be presented in many different ways containing a subliminal implied narrative.
For example when Jesus turned water into wine it was said to be a miracle, when a Egyptian sorcerer turned a rod into a snake it
was said to be evil magic. One has to logically assume the underling intent of whom and of what was spoken.
Elderelite: So recovery my friend.... Im left wondering.....If the only differance between a miracle and magic is the source...... How do you determine the source? Bear in mind, according to you, same act, se result, only differance is the source....
Easy, the Bible makes it clear to us when God is behind such supernatural occurrences and when something of a differnent nature is. That is why although the Egyptians are described as MAGIC-PRACTICING PRIESTS who performed the same act Moses and Aaron did, it is made distinct in the Bible that one was an imitation of the other, not an identical act. Notice you never see Moses and Aaron described as magic-practicing priests, because it is Jehovah who makes the distinction between the two.
ahhhh.... so its the bible...
Who gave Satan the power of making a Miracle/Magic?..
Who gave Moses the power of making a Miracle/Magic?..
It all comes from one place..
You just blew my mind Outlaw....JW's make the assumption of why didn't God just kill Satan, Adam and Eve right then and start over. Then they say well time had to be allowed for the accusations etc. to do a full turn....BUT....WHY didn't God just depower Satan? Not kill him...Just take away his powers? Using Kryptonite or something.... So in my mind God IS responsible for all of this.
LOL its laughable to cite the source of something as the determining factor. THe reality is you cant know the source. You can CLAIM a source, but if its the same acts that lead to the same end results you have assume the same source.
Its like saying flipping a light switch in a room is to use electricity and flipping the same light switch another day is using water. Its stupid on every level.
Don't forget the magic word, "Amen" to seal the deal.
And don't forget magic's phrases like "abracadabra".
From: http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/361874/jewish/Abraham.htm
Abraham was also fully aware of the magical and idolatrous uses that could be developed from these mysteries, and the Talmud states that Abraham had a tract dealing with idolatry that consisted of 400 chapters. There is also a Talmudic teaching that Abraham taught the mysteries involving “unclean names” to the children of his concubines. This is based on the verse, “to the sons of the concubines that Abraham had, Abraham gave gifts, and he sent them away…to the lands of the East” (Genesis 25:6). These gifts consisted of occult mysteries, which then spread in eastern Asia. It is no wonder that in many of the eastern religions we find parallels to Kabbalistic teachings.
One of the most simple and striking examples of the transmition of the occult is that every child knows a magician uses the phrase “Abracadabra.” This magical expression is none other than an Aramaic extension of the Hebrew abra— I will create, k’adabra—as I will speak—the knowledge of creation using letters and names as documented in Sefer Yetzirah.
Etude:Your analogy about the red cars floored me. You say they're identical in every way except that one runs on gas and the other on a battery. Then faced with the idea that the only difference is their power source, you object to someone else's comment by saying: "But they are not the same car"! (post 133) Huh? You do realize that they can't be the "same" car, otherwise they would occupy the exact same space at the exact same time? I don't think anyone was trying to suggest that. Obviously you obfuscate the corresponding parts of your analogy. I think cognisonance pointed that out more than once.
No, that was not the meaning behind my statement 'But they are not the same car'. I KNOW that they are not the same car, occupying the same space, moving at the same time nor was I suggesting that anyone was saying that. When I said that they are not the same car, I am referring to category. A distinction between a hybrid car and a car that runs on gas, will ALWAYS be made for anyone who purchases a vehicle. You will never go to a car dealership and have to ask: How do I know this car isn't a hybrid? It looks JUST like the other cars! Yes on the surface many hybrid models appear to be identical to their gas-run counterparts, but one cannot assert that they are the same car (categorically, speaking) because of their POWER SOURCE. How do this correlate to magic? Magic and miracles appear to be similar on the surface (the example was brought up about the rod turning into a snake). But the POWER SOURCE behind both occurrences (though, both supernatural) are DIFFERENT, and this is why categorically magic and miracles are not to be used interchangeably.
But if you really put yourself in the place of someone neutral, as some sort of third-party observer, as a visitor to Egypt when the frogs came out of the river or when everyone's staffs (staves) became flaccid and turned to snakes, as an independent observer, you would not have known the nature or the source of the event but for the fact that someone told you. If you are so inclined, you'll believe the Hebrews if they tell you. If not, you'll believe the Egyptians because they were also successful. The real point is that the source is arbitrary, while the events are indistinguishable. I realize that for you they are not and the whole thing is quite simple. But for a critically thinking and impartial individual, if we can't be sure, it's OK to say "I don't know" and leave it at that.
This is the same type of reasoning AnnoMoly used and as I pointed out it is fallacious and cannot be used with such an intricate distinction between such occurrences. Of course, if I am not a Hebrew, I am likely a pagan who believes in thousands of deities. If we are talking about something of a Biblical theological nature, should the pagan's viewpoint be weighed equivocally with that of the Hebrews? Should it be argued that the Bible teaches that there a hundreds and hundreds of 'God's' because many pagan deities are mentioned and when many miracles were performed, independent observers couldn't attribute the difference to Jehovah or one of their gods? Of course not. This isn't about neutrality from a certain individual's standpoint, but this is about the distinction that the Bible makes for us. We could argue in circles all day long about what consistutes a miracle and what consistitutes magic, but when we are speaking from a strictly Biblical perspective, the distinction between the two is made clear.
Let's face it, since you're taking the word of a tome with many assailable accounts, unless you can explain them all away, you may finally conclude with respect to miraculous or magical events that if it looks like a duck, waddles like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's probably a duck. You do realize that I'm not giving you an answer to the JWfacts reliability issue (I've never been there) or am even arguing about the veracity of Jehovah or am talking about whether Godzilla really stomped all over Tokyo. But one thing is clear: that even if this one issue in which you are clearly fallible were in a Bizarro world to be found valid, you cannot ignore all the other problems that exist with the teachings of the WTBTS and it would be very difficult to explain the changing stances that the JWs present in their literature. Hence, I'm not sure why you're hung up on this one particular issue.
This is irrelevant to the issue at hand. Bringing up 'changing stances' in the WT literature is not the issue involved. It is the deception and the falsehood of equivocating miracles with magic, especially when we are talking from a Biblical perspective. I'm 'hung up' on this issue because it is one of several misleading and inaccurate articles I have found on a site that is often referenced and quoted on this forum. I am starting small (magic) and will eventually get to deeper, more complicated subjects (such as blood and the Trinity). You sure do know how to say a lot without really saying anything.
Notice you never see Moses and Aaron described as magic-practicing priests, because it is Jehovah who makes the distinction between the two.
Exactly my point Recovery, pertaining to who was proclaiming what. This story was spoken to imply that Yahweh's power overcasts any other powers
from any other possible sources. There was a deliberate intent to the story and that was it ?
i'm still waiting on this which we know for sure actually happened
how is it your spirit directed organization, with it's all knowing and perfect god, managed to allow that monster to rape children for DECADES.
the elders knew, he had confessed and yet, under prayerful consideration, he is made a ministerial servant IN THE VERY SAME YEAR HE STARTS SODOMIZING A 6 YEAR OLD.
are you REALLY going to brush that aside as imperfect men? i wonder how you'd feel if that was you being sodomized, or if that was your own child?
but wait! there's more...
take a good long look at those statements, made by YOUR organization.
you don't have to turn in time, you don't have to go to mtg for fs, you don't have to go to specific territories, you don't have to invite people to the kingdom halls or even TRY to conduct bible studies. think about that. they denied in COURT DOCUMENTS that witnesses have to ATTEMPT to conduct bible studies with others.
well that's strange bc i remember having to turn in slips every month, and try to find interested ones to study with and bring them in.
now why would they deny all of this stuff in a trial where one of their ministers was sodomizing a bible study's child? could it be to limit liability???
There are those that will argue that the use of amen is essentially the same as the use of abracadabra. But is this really the case?
This word in both English and Greek is a transliteration from the Hebrew 'a·men′. The meaning is “so be it,” or “surely.” The Hebrew root word from which it is drawn ('a·man′) means “be faithful; be trustworthy.” When a person says something that is agreeable, the term "amen" is often used.
Now if someone says something that you agree with, are you likely to say abracadabra? Why or why not?
