Jwfacts, Why Do You Equate Miracles With Magic?

by Recovery 398 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Recovery

  Apparently people are having a hard time understanding the distinction between magic and miracles of God. Magic is a manipulation of the relationship between the terrestrial and spiritual realms merely for worldly purposes. Divine miracles creatively exploit this relationship for the sake of human salvation . Just because something is a supernatural event does not make it a miracle. It is the source of that supernatural event that places it in the category of either magic or miracle. Magic can never be something performed by God or with the approval/assistance of God because the source of the power behind magic is not from God. Miracles are only from God. Magic can be from a number of sources.

  That is why the Old Testament expressly condemns the practice of magic, sorcery, divination, foretelling of events, consulting spirit mediums. These things may have supernatural repercussions but they can never be said to be miracles of God.

  If magic and miracles are the same, how could God forbid them and condemn them and sentence those who practice them to death because they practiced them? Let's be big boys and girls and use our thinking caps. It's not like we're interpreting Revelation.
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  NewChapter

  elderelite - Well of course I wanted them to defend their favorite website, jwfacts. This is all they quote from and refer me to in nearly every thread a theological discussion takes place. In fact, a lot of the arguments used on this board are simply rehashes of what is presented on jwfacts and websites like towerwatch. We know the Bible is right about magic. However, the ex JWs say JWs are wrong about magic. So which is it, who's right and who's wrong? It's been proven clearly to be that JW's are right and that the arguments jwfacts used are deceptive, misleading, and full of logical fallacies which calls into question their entire website.

  Actually, this is quite dense. I rarely go to JWfacts, and don't believe I have ever quoted from it. Not that I have a problem with jwfacts, it's a great site, but I don't feel the need to defend it. It doesn't need defending. It stands on its own. The bible, however, apparently needs an awful lot of defending. Ah well. Now if you'd like to talk about something specific, rather than looking for us to defend a fine site from silly attacks, then we can do so.

  Evolution---great subject. I'll talk about that. The inconsistencies in the bible. Another great subject. Let's go for it.

  But really, you frame your arguments in totally tiny manner. Instead of discussing relevant things, you choose to frame it as a defense of jwfacts. Your intention was to put us in a position of defense, and not even to defend something that we can prove or disprove, but to defend against your completely subjective opinion on an internet site. This is how small your world really is right now. You think you've proved some point because you couldn't manipulate us into defending a website the way you have to defend the WTBTS.

  The statement is that miracles are no different than magic. Talk about it, and leave JWfacts out of it. That is the issue you have. You don't like being called out for liking some magic. So you get all hostile against only one person that pointed it out.

  The only difference between magic and miracles is who is holding the magic wand. I don't believe in magic. I don't believe in miracles. It is absolutely amusing to watch a debate about make-believe things and where they stem from.

  We are not under a mandate to defend JWfacts. The bible really needed some help, so it said everyone has to defend it. Weak book. Weak god. Your small fundamental view seems to think that websites to us are the equivalent to the bible for you. It must be very hard for you to frame the world outside that context. you cannot conceive of people thinking freely and not pledging undying devotion and protection to something regardless of the facts.
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  mrsjones5

  " If magic and miracles are the same, how could God forbid them and condemn them and sentence those who practice them to death because they practiced them? Let's be big boys and girls and use our thinking caps. It's not like we're interpreting Revelation."

  God doesn't like to share? Or his magic is the only magic that matters? Or his magic really isn't up to snuff so others magic is forbidden cuz it shows up his magic? Take your pick.

  Oh and jwfacts is a nice chap with a gorgeous kid. Love his site but that don't mean he's a budding cult leader that I plan to follow. I don't think he would want that and I've had my fill of cults thank you.
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  NewChapter

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  jwfacts

  Recovery, you want the topic to be black and white, when it is not. Cults appeal to those that need a black and white world, or sadly were indoctrinated as children to think they need.

  Have you ever watched a Disney movie? Have you ever read Peter Pan? Did you use your imagination as a child? Then you used magic, according to the Sparlock video.
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  jwfacts

  Recovery - "Magic is a manipulation of the relationship between the terrestrial and spiritual realms merely for worldly purposes. Divine miracles creatively exploit this relationship for the sake of human salvation ."

  What Scripture is that from? Or is that some doctrine of yours to help justify the difference.
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  Recovery

  Paralipomenon - To answer your question I could not tell you whether it was a magic or a miracle. I would need proof/confirmation of God's involvement before I could make the distinction. That is why the author of Jwfacts is in error when he says that the priests performed magic. Magic is never ever approved by God and is expressly condemned by God. All the supernatural events we find in the Bible (when performed by God's people) are said to be miracles because they were performed with God's assistance. If the priests were performing magic then they should have been put to death under the Levitical Law Code

  Jwfacts - It is misleading to call them "magic practicing priests" because the priests did not practice magic. The Law code forbade that. So you are contradicting God's Word by ascribing such titles to them and you are belittling the miracles performed with the assistance of Jehovah God by calling them magic. No, magic and miracles, cannot be used interchangeably. I don't know how much simpler I can explain this. They both invoke supernatural events, but they are not similar in manner because they are performed by different sources. Let me illustrate it for you:

  You have two cars. They look exactly the same. They are both brand new, being driven for the first time with 0 mileage. They are the same shape, size, color, and have all the same features on the outside. But one is a hybrid car that runs off a battery and the other car runs on premium gas. Now will you ever hear a car dealership call these two cars the same, sell them for the same price, and make absolutely no distinction between the two? Of course not. You would definitely want to know whether your car is a hybrid or a regular car no matter how similar they look on the outside. That is the difference between magic and miracles. On the outside, they may appear to be the same (supernatural repercussions), but the source (the inside of the car) is what makes them different. That is why one is condemned (magic) and one is approved by God (miracles).
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  NewChapter

  But they are both cars. They are simply fueled differently. Magic and miracles are the same too---they just claim to have different fuel.
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  jwfacts

  Another statement you made " Can you image what apostates would say if a Watchtower came out and said the apostles and the prophets used magic and that magic is okay from God's standpoint. "

  The apostles did in fact use magic or miracles as you like to say. They healed the sick, raised the dead. It is interesting that JW's do not have these powers. Those from the Bible that the Watchtower say belonged to God's organisation both OT and NT were given powers. It is very revealing that the Watchtower leaders are unable to exhibit any such power themselves.
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  Recovery

  Finkelstein - God doesn't really disapprove of magic? Oh, I wonder why he said this then. "There should not be found in you....anyone who employs divination, a practicer of magic or anyone who looks for omens or a sorcerer.." - Deuteronomy 18:10

  If anyone's interested I suggest you read Exodus 8. It will show you clearly the distinction between magic and miracles.