Jwfacts, Why Do You Equate Miracles With Magic?

by Recovery 398 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  jwfacts

  Exodus 8. It will show you clearly the distinction between magic and miracles.

  Actually, it shows they are the same.

  “Say to Aaron, ‘Stretch your hand with your rod + out over the rivers, the Nile canals and the reedy pools and make the frogs come up over the land of Egypt.’” 6 At that Aaron stretched his hand out over the waters of Egypt, and the frogs began to come up and to cover the land of Egypt. 7 However, the magic-practicing priests did the same thing by their secret arts and made the frogs come up over the land of Egypt.

  It is only the source of power that is the difference that offends God.

  However, the point of the article was that Sparlock is not magic. He is a plastic toy that stimulates the imagination. A JW child can play with it without drawing Satanic powers. He can say it uses Jehovah's magic and is good, or Satan's magic and is bad. Either way, Sparlock is a toy that can be part of a balanced upbringing.

  You did not answer the question. Have you ever watched Disney? I assume the answer has to be yes, so please justify that after your argument on this thread.
• 

  Recovery

  No, King Solomon, I do not believe miracles occur in 2012, but I'm sure magic occurs.

  NewChapter- Sure, it's quite dense, but so is this entire board. Since Sparlock was such a popular topic on this board, I thought it would be appropriate to point out some obvious discrepancies on this board's favorite exJW website. Sure, I'd love to debate about evolution and the Bible's inconsistencies, but why can't we just stay on topic and discuss the statements in error on Jwfacts?

  Jwfacts - I can't help but notice you have not proven that magic and miracles are equivalent. In fact, you reference to the magic practicing priests in Exodus 8 proves it even more conclusively that the same events can be performed but still be placed into separate categories of magic and miracles. The WT does not need to exhibit any powers or miracle-performing because that is what God's Kingdom will do. In fact, notice what the apostles (the very ones who possessed such powers had to say about such things)

  2 Thessalonians 2:9 "But the lawless one’s presence is according to the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and portents.."

  Notice Jesus' words about powerful miracles/signs at Matthew 7:22 "Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’"

  1 Timothy 4:1 "However, the inspired utterance says definitely that in later periods of time some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to misleading inspired utterances.."

  Even in the first century there was a lot of deception when it came to inspired utterances. There were superfine apostles, forgery of 'inspired letters' from the apostles, and even false inspired utterances (such as tongues, prophesying) that were occurring. That is why the Bible says that these things would be done away with (by God) after the restraint (the apostles) were gone, because there would no longer be a clear distinction between what is really from God and what is not. That is why Jesus said "MANY WILL SAY TO ME IN THAT DAY, DID WE NOT....?" because people would be mislead by these showy displays of power and prowess when they were not really from God.

  The Bible is how we can determine who really has God's backing and who does not. Not powers.
• 

  wannabefree

  I see a difference between miracles and magic,

  but I don't see a difference between Watch Tower and a cult.
• 

  Recovery

  But they are both cars. They are simply fueled differently. Magic and miracles are the same too---they just claim to have different fuel.

  But they are not the same car. One is a hybrid, one runs on gas. There will always be a distinction at car dealerships between the two.
• 

  Finkelstein

  It's been proven clearly to be that JW's are right and that the arguments jwfacts used are deceptive, misleading, and full of logical fallacies which calls into question their entire website.

  Recovery you've just made an astonishing Straw man argument as a means to tarish all the infromation contained on the JWfacts web site.

  A straw man, known in the UK as an Aunt Sally , is a type of argument and is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position. [1] To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by replacing it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition (the "straw man"), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position.

  You seem to think all ex-jws are getting information from outside sources to conclude the WTS. is a deliberate deceiving scam.

  You quote Ray Franz, Jwfacts and others as sources that people have acquired their knowledge of what makes up the JWS/WTS. when in

  reality its the workings of the WTS. and its doctrines themselves.

  One doesn't need to hear or read information from outside the WTS. all they have to do is read what the WTS. publicly publishes,

  to come to the realization of how corrpt and devious this organization is.
• 

  NewChapter

  Well we don't have to read a website to see the problem with WT literature. We only need to read the WT literature!

  Remember that one article that blamed rape on women because aunts and mothers treat baby boy gentials like play things? Yeah, that one nearly made me puke.
• 

  jwfacts

  Recovery- "I can't help but notice you have not proven that magic and miracles are equivalent."

  You are abusing semantics in order to fit what you want to believe. Miracle and magic are both just words. The things that Aaron did fits the definition of both words.

  "The power of apparently influencing the course of events by using mysterious or supernatural forces."

  The above is the definition that fits exactly what Aaron did, and it is the definition of magic. So Aaron did magic. I am sorry if your black and white understanding of the Bible does not want to accept that.
• 

  Recovery

  jwfacts says: as the Bible shows that God's followers practice magic, even if they are usually referred to as miracles. For instance, the story of Moses and Pharaoh depicts Moses and Aaron battling magic tricks with Pharaoh's magic practicing priests. Aaron was a magic practicing priest himself; There are numerous magical stories in the Bible. Moses' copper serpent with healing powers, the burning bush, Balaam's talking ass, the Angel that killed 186,000 Assyrians, Jesus walking on water and turning water into wine, the apostles handling snakes, healing people and raising the dead. Being a magician does not therefore indicate that a person is a worshipper of Satan.

  Almighty God says: "“‘YOU must not look for omens, and YOU must not practice magic." (Lev 19:26)

  "When you are entered into the land that Jehovah your God is giving you, you must not learn to do according to the detestable things of those nations. 10 There should not be found in you..anyone who employs divination, a practicer of magic or anyone who looks for omens or a sorcerer, 11 or one who binds others with a spell or anyone who consults a spirit medium or a professional foreteller of events or anyone who inquires of the dead." (Deu 18:9-12)

  "And I will cut off sorceries out of your hand, and no practicers of magic will you continue to have." (Micah 5:12)

  Who should we believe ladies and gentleman?
• 

  Recovery

  Jehovah says: " "“‘ YOU must not practice magic."

  Jwfacts says: ""'There is nothing wrong with practicing magic."

  Would Almighty God contradict himself and lie on numerous occassions?

  Also, I have watched Disney.
• 

  NewChapter

  Well we shouldn't believe in magic---and we certainly should not be afraid of it. Same with miracles. Children can afford to believe in magic, because the world is so new and wondrous to them. Their imaginations are particularly active and vivid. But I expect them at some point to be able to separate fantasy from reality. They can still enjoy magic, in fiction, but they get a grip on what is real. I certainly wouldn't want children to grow up into neurotic, superstitious adults that fear supernatural things. And hopefully most will grow up to be on the right side of a miracles vs magic argument.