Hello Giordano, I appreciate your comments! I think too that just coming out and saying these things may not always be the best course. It pays to lay some groudwork first to ease people into the idea of what you are saying.
The New Diary of Winston Smith
by WinstonSmith 336 Replies latest jw experiences
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WinstonSmith
A few months passed after our big conversation with mum, and even though we kept in regular touch as we always have, the subject never came up. In the time that passed since we talked, Mrs Smith and I have drifted further and further away from the congregation. The last time we were in a Kingdom Hall was for the Memorial this year, back in March. We haven’t been out in field service for almost a year.
The sad thing is all these months passed, and we never heard anything from anyone from our local congregation. We would get a text message once a month from our Group Overseer looking for our reports, but there was never any query in to how we were, or if we were even alive. I guess you really learn who your friends are when you go through something like this. The only person that as consistently kept in touch and that we have still caught up with reasonably regularly has been Sister T, about whom I have talked on here many times. We have been able to be honest with her and she agrees with a lot of what we have talked about, even going so far as saying that she is convinced that Satan has entered the organisation and that the time will soon come when Jehovah needs to clean it out. Despite this, she remains loyal to the organisation, and to be honest, I believe that she needs it, as it gives her some sort of steadiness, or routine for her life. We once entertained hopes that we may be able to help her wake up and move on, but now doubt that. It may actually be better for her to stay in to be completely honest.
Over this period, there have been some frustrating moments. We have run in to people and they have asked where we have been, there is an elder (from another congregation) who works not far from me who waited on a corner one morning so he could tell me that he had heard that we hadn’t been to meetings, and we have been invited to the birthday party of one of the guys at work.
Each of these occasions had led to me not being completely truthful, and this kind of thing does not sit well with me. My mumma raised me to be honest, and I don’t like deceiving people.I also knew that we couldn’t keep going on like this with mum, that we could not pretend everything was normal, when in actual fact we were inactive, and don’t want anything to do with the organisation.
You might remember a while back that Mrs Smith and I had a discussion about whether or not one or both of us should disassociate ourselves. At the time we decided against it because we felt that we should not have to play by the WTS rules since there is no scriptural backing for disassociation. We wanted to just fade away and be left alone. If you look back at page 7of this thread you will see a post from me on February 9 th 2013 where I went into some detail about this.
However, even after moving situations like those mentioned above keep happening. And again, I do not like being dishonest, blaming Mrs Smith’s anxiety for our absence. While we are happy with our progress out of the cult, we are both getting more and more frustrated with wanting to just break free and be done with it. We realise that if things stay as they are, we can never be truly free of this organisation.
Mrs Smith and I have discussed this at length, and we have decided that I will disassociate myself, while she remains ‘in’ – keep in mind though that we are inactive anyway so the only reason for Mrs Smith to not DA is that she can remain in contact with a couple of people, still meet up with them for coffee, and hey, if the opportunity arises, sow some seeds of doubt.
With the decision made, we both felt like another weight had been lifted. There have been a series of weights lifted over the last couple of years: me stepping down as an elder, Mrs Smith waking up, us deciding not to go door to door anymore, and deciding not to go to any meetings any more. It is another big step away from this high control and uncaring group. What have I got to lose? Not much really, but I will have drawn a line in the sand that will make people leave us in peace.
The plan is to email my letter to the COBE, and at the same time send a personal message to all my JW friends on Facebook that contains an opening line and then a copy of the letter I sent to the COBE. This way they can all see the letter and there is none of the mysterious “I wonder what it was all about” chit chat that goes on when people just hear an announcement.
But before that happens, we need to tell mum and my sister. We also feel like we should tell Sister T.
Back in those comments I made back when we were thinking of DAing I said this:
“As we see it, the hardest part is going to be breaking the news to my Mum, my sister, and Sister T. My Mum and I have always had a good and open relationship and I honestly think that if I take the time to explain to her my reasons she would be okay with it…Of course we are not so naive as to think that the cult shutters might slam down too. Mum is a very reasonable and logical person and I have mentioned in emails to her that some recent decisions and actions by the organisation and elders have left me 'uncomfortable' (I referred to but did not specifically mention the child abuse policies). My sister as you know has recently had some awful experiences with her local elders. Who knows, maybe me taking this step will help her grow the balls she needs to stand up to them and her prick of a husband and begin to lead her own life. Sister T has said on more than one occasion that "she doesn't know what she would do without us" and "the only reason I'm in the truth is because of you" By having just me disassociate, Mrs Smith can remain in contact and ease the blow while also continuing to help Sister T (and maybe others) wake up.”
Our big long conversation with mum about how we feel about the organisation has happened since I wrote the above comment. The chat that we had and mum’s reaction to it gave us some hope that we may be able to explain to her that I was going to DA, and that she might be okay with it.
So this was our next challenge. Explaining to mum that things had progressed to the point where we both did not want anything to do with the JWs anymore, and what we had planned to do about it.
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WinstonSmith
We thought long and hard how we might break it to mum that I was going to DA. The good thing though was that long conversation we had. She was smart enough to realise that something was up, but also cool enough to let it slide until we were ready to talk about it. This is one of the many reasons I love my mum dearly. She is a sharp one, and knows how to read a situation.
The conversation we had was a good foundation to build on, so in an email, in amongst other things, I said that we had been having some stress lately that related to the things we talked about that time we were together. I just mentioned it briefly so that if she wanted to pick up on it she could, or ignore it if she wanted. I have always been careful not to be preachy, but to allow people to speak when they want to speak.
In her reply she asked what stuff was going on to cause us stress, and said that she didn’t want any surprises so just tell her what it was. She said that reading between the lines it sounded like we were leaving the congregation, but whether this was as inactive or something else she was not sure, but she would prefer to know clearly.
Well, we thought this is it, make or break time. Time to man up and put our big boy undies on. Here is my reply:
“Our conversation has played on our minds since you left. It was the first chance we had to speak honestly about how we have been feeling about life as a JW. To be honest those feelings are stronger now. We are to be frank, over it. There is just so much that we can't reconcile in our minds between what the bible says and the way that things are done in the organisation. I'm talking from a general publisher point of view and also from an elders point of view. From an organisation point of view and a doctrine point of view.
My experience as an elder and seeing how it works behind the scenes was a shock to the system, and has left me rattled for a long time. Mrs Smith’s experience with her anxiety and the total lack of interest and care from the congregation and elders (and retarded comments in the WT don't help either) has left her feeling empty and unvalued. Its quite stressful really. Its distressing enough to just write this knowing that the veneer of something we have believed and lived for most of our lives is peeling.
We are at the point now where we don't really want anything more to do with it. It is really tough because the elders and the Society come down harsh on those with doubts, even if those doubts are based on sound logic and reasoning. They are simply not interested in hearing what you have to say, they just want to know if you think the Faithful and Discreet Slave are Jesus' representatives on earth - trust me I've been there as an elder.
It is also very difficult because we also know what is expected of family and friends. Yet in our minds we can't honestly continue to call our Jehovah's Witnesses when we just don't consider ourselves to be such. What are we supposed to do, go on living a lie? Or make it clear how we feel so there is no deceit and shenanigans? Unfortunately we know that the cost of being honest can be high.
We haven't decided what we will do. All this doesn't mean we are bad people and will suddenly turn into serial killers. We are exactly the same people, we just believe something different. We still respect what our friends and family believe, everyone has the right to follow their beliefs and we will always support that. For us though, we believe something different hope that others can understand that.
We haven't done anything about this officially because we haven't decided what we will do. I'm sure we will disappoint a lot of people but surely telling the truth is better than living a lie? These are not decisions that we are making lightly. We are agonising over them.
I'm sorry if this upsets you. I know it will, but I also fervently hope that I have somehow communicated this in a way that makes sense, and that you can understand.
I don't know what else to say except that we love you guys, always have, and always will, no matter what. Please know that as far as we are concerned our love and respect for you guys has not changed one iota. We will as usual keep in touch like we always have. But we also understand if you don't feel that you can reciprocate. We are well aware of what the Society expects to be done in this situation.
I hope you can understand.”
We clicked SEND and then sat back and let out a big sigh. It was now out of our hands, and whichever way this was going to go, this is where it starts.
I love my mum so much and would hate to not have her in my life, so it was a very tense and nervous 5 hours that passed before she replied. She was away for a day trip, so the reply was brief…
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Listener
Winston, you're doing this on purpose, the suspense is killing us. lol
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Giordano
Winston my wife and I left in the mid 1960's a time of relative peace among the JW's of that era. Apostates was not a word I was even familiar with.
Of course there were problems. The Vietnam war was raging and the brains at the WT society thought 1975 was going to be the end date........again. And of course that pathetic Blood issue. What a cluster F#$%.
Family repositioned their respect and affection for us, but we were not shunned. Sometimes I regret that we weren’t shunned.......... as we had to endure their squinty eyed disapproval for the next 45 years. Not a problem since we generously returned their disapproval.
I no longer have to endure my closest family going into the cold ground with that JW mantra ringing in my ears....... 'and Jesus went to Lazarus'.
I am now reassured that a morphine drip will usher me into the next phase of my life should there be one. God being the ultimate trickster.....who knows what or if that will be.
When we DA ourselves I only had to face being drafted into a small and deadly war......Vietnam. I lacked any job skills or higher education, and learned that we were facing the end times in 1975. We, my great wife and I, managed to produce a child who unintentionally helped me bypass Vietnam. My son and I have an agreement............. he helped me get out of the draft (they changed the status of male parents because of the growing disapproval of the war) and we kept him out of the JW’s. He says he got the better end of the deal.
How did we pass 1975? By then I had completely forgotten about it. Prophecy is a bitch.
On leaving I was the skinned lamb, no education, no idea of how to live in the real world, no friends, judgmental family. We had lost all and family looked at us as unworthy because we no longer believed as they did. My pride had been knocked into the dirt. No problem! We forged away, prospered and have lived a good/great life.
On November 2nd my wife and I, our son and his family (3 non witness grandchildren) will celebrate our 50th wedding anniversary. We are going to call our anniversary 50 over 50 and have a catered affair at our historic 1879 home in our historic VA town.
The big problem is getting our closest friends down to 50.....we will cheat as we can’t bring the number down below 75. But we learned at the hands of experts “Millions living today may never die.” So we will fib about the number.
Would I do it all over again? Leave earlier and get a good education? No, I am surrounded by the best people in the world who love me unconditionally. It turns out I am successful in life and content. What else do I need as I enter my 7th decade? I long ago stopped looking for my mother's approval. I approved of her and that is enough.
Looking at 45 years of happiness and still counting, still excited by the possibilities long after we left that miserable religion.
Gio
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Pickler
Hey Winston & Mrs Smith. Good to catch up on your story. I love your summary of the child abuse issue. It's something that none of us can ignore, that the so called "gods organisation on earth" could act so appallingly.....when anyone with an ounce of common sense would protect their children, protect the most vulnerable.
Hope things go well for you with your Mum & sister...
enjoying your new home?
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Oubliette
Winston, that was a good letter you sent your mum. I hope you can maintain a loving relationship with her.
Earlier you posted that you were going to send a DA letter to the local BOE. Why? Why play their games on their terms? How does that benefit anyone. Wouldn't it be better to just live your life as you want? You don't owe anyone an explanation except your mum and maybe Sister T.
Best wishes,
Oubliette
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WinstonSmith
@Listener: I swear I'm not! I'm just writing it all up as I have time promise.
@Giordano: Always great to hear from you, and thanks for sharing some more of your story. The WTS has a terrible effect on famillies, and I hope to minimise this as much as possible, and escape with what I can.
@Pickler: We LOVE our new place. So conveniently located to so many things! The child abuse angle really hit a point with mum. People who have a heart can't honestly turn away from it and write it off.
@Oubliette: I will type up some more soon about how things went with mum. I don't really want to play by any JW rules, but writing a DA letter is the one and only thing I will do. Once I hit SEND, I am done with it. The rest of their rules can kiss my butt. The letter is more for me anyway. I need to have a mental line in the sand, and s ending a letter of DA, while it does mean following their BS rules, it will provide me with that line. It will also stop anyone spotting me in a crowd and coming to say "Awwww we miss you at the meetings!"
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WinstonSmith
So where was I? Oh yes, Mum’s reply to my email to her telling her that Mrs Smith and I didn’t want to be JWs anymore. This was the moment where I would learn whether or not my dearly loved mum would ever speak to me again. As mentioned, she was away for a day trip so her reply was brief:
“Please don’t be anxious about it at all. Not upset with you at all. So relax, and I will email you when we are back.”
Words cannot communicate how I felt after getting that. I felt like another massive weight had been lifted. I care so much for mum and was so worried what her reaction would be, not because I don’t trust her, but because I know how strong the pull of the WTS is. I was so relieved.
Later on we got to have an online chat and we talked it over a bit more. Mum said a number of really cool things like “Do what you have to do, be true to yourselves” “A lot of it I agree with you” “I go along with a lot of what you said like the lack of support etc” “The sex abuse thing really bothered me.” “Hearing things from an elders perspective was interesting.”
She did want some clarification as she thought my previous email had made it sound like we were being disfellowshipped. I assured her that we were not being disfellowshipped but that at the time I sent that email we were considering if both of us should DA. I told her that we had decided that only I would so that Mrs Smith could keep in touch with a couple friends. I reminded her that nowadays the WTS directs that DA people are treated the same as DF people. She said that the OM book uses 1 John 2:19 to say prove that the treatment is to be the same. I replied and said yes, when you read that scripture isolated on its own in the middle of a paragraph that talks about DA and DF it can give that impression, but when you read the scripture in context, it says no such thing, but is rather talking about the anti-christ. She said she would “check that out” and suggested that I say something similar to the elders. I chuckled and said yeah, that’s a good way to get a one way ticket to a judicial committee!
I sent her a copy of the DA letter I have written and then we finished up with her saying that she loved us both, cared about us very much and always would. She was sorry we were so distressed but assured us that she loved us and was proud of us. She told us that the decision had to be right for us and no-one else.
A few days later (last Wednesday) she emailed and asked if we had sent the letter to the elders yet. I said that I hadn’t as we were hoping to catch up with Sister T and talk it over with her. We felt like she should hear it from us rather just hear an announcement out of the blue. Mum said that she was glad that we had made a decision and could be true to our own feelings. “Good on you. I also agree with a lot of what you say, but there are other things that make me stay, so be it. Regardless of how it affects me I am proud of you sticking up for your beliefs.” I assured her that nothing has changed in our relationship from my point of view, just some points of view.
She admitted that she had a few tears about it but I got the impression it was more to do with the physical distance between us and not being able to talk face to face. She said again that there is a lot she agrees with us on and that she would love to discuss. She sometimes gets upset with the rules and regulations and no encouragement. I said that I am always ready to talk, and that if she wanted to send me a list of questions then she was more than welcome to.
We have had a couple of on and off online chats since then, but all is well. I have so much respect and love for my mum. I cannot put in to words just how I feel. She is a special woman, and I just fricken love her so much.
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konceptual99
Great to hear your updates Winston and I am very pleased you are progressing without losing your family.
One point however is on the DA/DF association with 1 John 2:19. You are right that the context shows it is talking about the "antichrist" however the WTS defines anyone who denies (to quote the Insight book) " any or all of the Scriptural teachings concerning him: his origin, his place in God’s arrangement, his fulfillment of the prophecies in the Hebrew Scriptures as the promised Messiah, his ministry and teachings and prophecies, as well as any opposition to or efforts to replace him in his position as God’s appointed High Priest and King."
The WTS will apply that to anyone who leaves the org regardless of if they continue to express a faith in Christ or not. Even if they continue to follow a Christian faith the WTS will claim that since it is not the "truth" then it falls into the same bracket.
The only reason I mention it is that reasoning on that scripture with the elders in an effort for your mum to justify continued contact will get her nowhere other than a fast track to the naughty step, perhaps even a JC if she openly maintains contact.
I guess this is not news to you but I hope your mum realises the potential impact of the stand she may be taking.
All the best!