Why aren't you an Atheist?

by Bloody Hotdogs! 697 Replies latest jw friends

  • frankiespeakin
    frankiespeakin

    Philosophical Skepticism:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_skepticism

    Philosophical skepticism (from Greek σκ?ψις - skepsis meaning "enquiry" - UK spelling, scepticism) is both aphilosophical school of thought and a method that crosses disciplines and cultures. Many skeptics critically examine the meaning systems of their times, and this examination often results in a position of ambiguity or doubt. [1] This skepticism can range from disbelief in contemporary philosophical solutions, to agnosticism, to rejecting the reality of the external world. One kind of scientific skepticism refers to the critical analysis of claims lacking empirical evidence. We are all skeptical of some things, especially since doubt and opposition are not always clearly distinguished. Philosophical skepticism, however, is an old movement with many variations, and contrasts with the view that at least one thing is certain, but if by being certain we mean absolute or unconditional certainty, then it is doubtful if it is rational to claim to be certain about anything. Indeed, for Hellenistic philosophers claiming that at least one thing is certain makes one a dogmatist.

  • Twitch
    Twitch

    As for the OP, the same line of reasoning lead me to atheism. The questions asked of the JW faith and god weren't answered by another. Seemed too close to a compromise of logic and purpose, an easy way to settle for something familiar and comfortable rather than commit to the reasoning and search that began the exit.

    That being said, I think there's no definite way to prove/disprove god. I don't find it uncomfortable to contemplate Spinoza's version or the ideas offered by eastern beliefs, what I know of them.

  • Knowsnothing
    Knowsnothing

    I agree that Outlaw's position seems reasonable, but I will repeat again, if God exists, why doesn't he settle the debate once and for all?

  • frankiespeakin
    frankiespeakin

    Since reality is multi-faceted, none of the pramanas gives absolute or perfect knowledge. Consequently, all knowledge is only tentative and provisional. This is expressed in Jain philosophy in the doctrine of naya, or partial predication (also known as the doctrine of perspectives or viewpoints). This insight generates a sevenfold classification of predications, which can be schematized as follows:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_epistemology

  • nicolaou
    nicolaou

    If you think Outlaw has 'won this debate' then you haven't understood the debate. In an argument between loud,angry extremists and calm, reasonable folk the natural tendency is to gravitate towards the civilised and reasonable debater, that's natural and understandable. Unfortunately that pays little heed to the actual arguments themselves.

    The truth may not lie in the safe, comfortable, middle-ground of reasonableness - the extremists MAY be right (but are doing themselves no favours with their combative style).

    Or, and I'm ready to reap some ire here, maybe the onlookers just don't care too much about the substance of a debate and simply choose to be seen siding with the popular debater irrespective of whether he's proven his point or not.


    Outlaw, you're big enough to know this isn't personal buddy.

  • King Solomon
    King Solomon

    The thing that's overlooked about the scientific method is that science ALWAYS deals in probabilities/statistical analysis, with a basic understanding amongst scientists that we NEVER have absolutes when interacting with the physical world: NEVER. Thus science deals in the techniques of statistical analysis: confidence intervals, standard deviations (from the mean), significant figures, etc. Science uses certain agreed-upon standards to say, "this much would be enough to prove/show/indicate a correlation exists", where correlation is expressed as a percentile. You NEVER get 100%, when you're dealing with real-life physical matter.

    As hinted at earlier, "proof" is a term from mathematics, where you CAN show that a theorem makes "perfect" sense if it can be assembled in a sequential manner, with assumptions arranged in a logically-harmonious fashion in order to demonstrate some idea. THAT'S how mathematicians speak of when saying they can prove something, but it can never translate into physical reality without some minor tolerances of error, since it's an idea, a series of thoughts, only: it's a thought experiment, existing only on paper and in the mind.

    I said earlier that courts use different standards for what constitutes proof, depending on the alleged crime: reasonable person, beyond a reasonable doubt, beyond a preponderance of the evidence, etc. The differences are often subtle, and a matter of opinion: hence, different people hearing the same evidence will reach a different verdict. However, a lack of 100% airtight incontrovertible proof is always lacking, as you cannot rule out the rare "black swan" event as a possibility. Does this lack of certainty mean we let everyone who's accused of a crime go free, since there's a minute possibility that we MIGHT be wrong? Of course not....

    Ironic that some people shy away from stating, or are are paralyzed from claiming they're 'atheists', although they're 99.999% sure there is no Abrahamic God for many different reasons; so they cling onto a title of 'agnostic' out of concern for the 0.001% chance they MAY be wrong (and more likely for the fear of being seen as arrogant or being biased, as if biased is ALWAYS a negative).

    Like I said it before, it would literally take closed-head trauma/TBI, forgetting everything I've learned in science and being left a dribbling fool, in order to believe in God; that's how convinced I am.

    Fact is, though, I don't want others to take MY word for it: there are no shortcuts here, so YOU'VE got to do the homework, the reading, the thinking. That's half the fun! At least it was for ME: I've always been the one who likes to think for myself, vs being fed pre-digested ideas, where the thinking has been done for me...

  • still thinking
    still thinking

    nicolaou...you may very well be right....

    trouble is, if people switch off to the message because of the 'way' it is being delivered. They probably don't want to hear the message in the first place. They just want their ears tickled. When you really want to know or hear something you listen IN SPITE of the way it has been said.

    I have learnt far more off some of the less 'polite' members of this forum than any one else. Manners don't make someone right in a debate.

  • Satanus
    Satanus

    Is it possible that there are 2 classes (sorry for term) of atheists: those who simply don't believe, since the very concept of nonmateriality is unconcievable to them? And, the other group that doesn't believe, but has a stake in their nonbelief. Ie, they have the capacity to believe, but would rather not for whatever reason(s). This bias would give rise to loyalty to the idea, and faith in it. Has this possibility been considered?

    S

  • cofty
    cofty

    I don't know whether those 2 caricatures exist or not but neither of them come close to describing me.

  • Satanus
    Satanus

    Well, my point is that there could be different kinds of atheists. You can't fit em all into one generalization.

    S

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