Why aren't you an Atheist? (page 27)

cofty

Outlaw - its as if you never pause to consider anything any atheist writes, you just keep restating the same simplistic "atheists can't prove nothing" mantra.

OUTLAW

Outlaw - its as if you never pause to consider anything any atheist writes,

you just keep restating the same simplistic "atheists can't prove nothing" mantra.....Cofty

Hey Cofty..

I see where your coming from..

I realised it when I was making my post to NC..

To be clear..

I`m talking about the Extremists on both sides..

They are not open to options..

They both have faith they are right..

Not everyone will fall into that group on either side..

.............................. OUTLAW

Satanus

I'm an extreme moderatist, myself. (Not to be confused w a moderator)

S

King Solomon

Outlaw said:

To be clear..

I`m talking about the Extremists on both sides..

They are not open to options..

They both have faith they are right..

Not everyone will fall into that group on either side..

Huh? So are extremists NOT allowed to have faith that they are right? Someone who knows with surety is NOT allowed to have faith in their position, and only the weaker-in-faith are? Hmmm....

I don't get that, other than perhaps it's a vestige of the biblical view that there is no sin worse than arrogance, being haughty (ALA Pharoah, builders of the Tower of Babel for daring to make a name for themselves, and anywhere else in the Bible the mere mortals try to accomplish something). Confidence in one's beliefs is not arrogance.

And once again, you're creating a straw-man here, suggesting that "extremist atheists" (perhaps me?) are somehow locked into our position. Nope.

YHWH Himself could clear up the question today, OR yesterday, OR ANYTIME in the past by presenting inconvtrovertible evidence of his own existence.

Ironic, since the only thing that omnipotent YHWH seems incapable of doing IS proving his own existence (and unfortunately, Biblical passages demanding him to be addressed as "I am, I really AM!" or decrying those who don't believe in God as "fools" comes off as either desparate pleading, akin to Sally Fields "you DO really love me" acceptance speech, or ad hominems).

Fact is:

ALL faith is NOT created equal: that's a false equivalance created saying that religious faith and scientific faith are, and that's the basis upon which you argument lies, saying, "both demand faith, so they're basically the same". Nope. Not so.

Here's from a recent discussion between TEC and I, discussing Hebrews 11:1, which gives the Bible's definition of faith (you all know it: "faith is the assured expectation of things hoped for, the evident demonstration of things though not yet beheld").

Tec said:

Faith is knowing. That is what that verse states. It is not mere belief, or hope, or wishful thinking. It is knowing, and not doubting. That is faith. That is what this verse states.

The author of Hebrews goes on to continue to mention people like Noah, and Abraham, etc. Because they had faith in what God told them; they had faith in God; they trusted Him; they KNEW and did not doubt.

Hmmm, I'm not sure what definitions of the words 'belief' and 'knowlege' you (TEC) are using.

I think of knowledge as a sub-category of belief; people may honestly believe in fairies, despite being unable to PROVE they exist. Knowledge is based on "knowns", the known, the knowable, that which can be tangibly discerned by use of our physical senses.

Here's an explanation that works for me:

http://askville.amazon.com/difference-belief-knowledge/AnswerViewer.do?requestId=2572218

Ultimately, everything that we "know" is a matter of perception. We could be just brains-in-vats, and everything we "know" is just an illusion.

So there’s no clear line between knowledge and belief, but in general the line is a difference in repeatability. I "know" that my cell phone is in my pocket because I can go check it. Every time I repeat the experiment, my cell phone is there. And I "know" that there is a city called Toronto in Canada, because I can go check it. I don’t actually have to go there and prove it, because I know that I could. Other people report that they’ve done the experiment, and that’ll be good enough for now. So I call it "knowledge", and I’ll revise what I know if I start hearing reports that Toronto is actually a kind of citrus fruit. The ironic point is that the experiment could fail. The possibility of failure is critical. If I could said, "Well, I put my hand in my pocket and my cell phone isn’t there, but I’ll say that it is anyway," then my experiment wouldn’t really prove much. We’d just say, "My cell phone is there, whether it really is or not", and that’s not terribly useful.

By contrast, "belief" is for stuff which we can’t demonstrate. I believe that we will some day cure cancer, even though I can’t do an experiment to show it. I could wait a hundred years, but if it hadn’t been found, it might just need another hundred years. So that’s the difference: knowledge is belief you can test. And by "test", I mean the possibility of proving that it isn’t true. If you believe it and no evidence could convince you otherwise, then the belief isn’t particularly useful. You might well act on it, but you cannot be sure that it’s true. There are some beliefs that people choose to believe that absolutely cannot be refuted. We can call these "faith". (We also have "faith" that the sun will rise tomorrow, but that's a less interesting sense of the word.) There is no inherent problem with faith; since it can't be tested it can't be proven wrong. Many people find that it helps them get through their day. The only problem comes when my immovable faith meets your unstoppable belief. Then people get hurt. But until then we all get along pretty well despite (and, often, because of) our faiths.

So to get back to the topic of faith:

Religious faith is based on a belief, since 'hope' is a belief (you don't KNOW that what you HOPE for will actually come to fruition; you cannot demonstrate that it WILL come true, without knowing the future), then religious faith IS based on hope; we're back to a circular definition.

Scientific faith is ALSO a belief, but it's based on KNOWLEDGE, which CAN be demonstrated (as explained above).

I suspect Xians are TRYING to convert their hope-based beliefs into knowledge-based beliefs, by falsely concluding that the conversion will occur IF only they can eliminate their DOUBTS, as if THAT'S the critical difference. That's flawed logic, because you cannot make up for the lack of repeatability and demonstrability offered by knowledge simply by eliminating the DOUBTS.

While Jesus was able to convert water into wine, you'd need God's miracles to convert hope-based beliefs into knowledge-based beliefs. And THAT'S exactly what people like me are ASKING for: tangible concrete evidence (aka proofs) on which to base our faith in beliefs, so it is NOT Xian faith, AKA "blind faith".

Christ Alone

perhaps it's a vestige of the biblical view that there is no sin worse than arrogance, being haughty

Good to see that you tossed humility and tolerance out along with the belief in God.

King Solomon

Good to see that you tossed humility and tolerance out along with the belief in God.

Irony is, you see nothing wrong with insulting others, and don't even realize when you DO, perhaps excused in the name of YOUR religious beliefs, with religious intolerance at it's blindest on display (PS I the icon of Jesus comforting a distressed child: creepy, actually, in light of the pedophile issues of the RCC...).

You're at a fundamental disadvantage here, as I KNOW your theological spiel inside-out, having learned it before; you cannot claim the same. You don't understand the rationalist's scientific viewpoint (as you've proved repeatedly).

So WHO'S the ignorant intolerant one here, again? You haven't learned our beliefs so are arguing from a position of ignorance; hence all you've GOT are vapid ad hominems and straw-man arguments (see your comment above).

nicolaou

Christ Alone, I find your avatar creepy and disturbing. Just saying . . . .

Tec - Faith is knowing. That is what that verse states. It is not mere belief, or hope, or wishful thinking. It is knowing, and not doubting. That is faith. That is what this verse states.

Then the verse is wrong Tammy.

"things that you're liable to read in the Bible . . "

OUTLAW

Huh? So are extremists NOT allowed to have faith that they are right? .....KS

And once again, you're creating a straw-man here, suggesting that "extremist atheists" (perhaps me?)

are somehow locked into our position. Nope....KS

I`ve never said Extremists should not be allowed to have faith..

I`ve simply pointed out they "Do" have Faith..

If your not locked into your position,then you open the door for other possiblitys..

Things that may go against your current beliefs..

If thats the case..

Why go to great lengths to defend something your not sure of?

You`ve created 2 strawman hoping I`ll adopt them..

They belong to you..

............................ ...OUTLAW

NewChapter

You leave the door open for other posibilitys..

LOL! It's NOT a door---not a door---it's an iddy biddy, eensy, weensy, polka dotted crack! MICROSCOPIC!

teeny, tiny

agonus

test

Why aren't you an Atheist?

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