Why aren't you an Atheist? (page 30)

cofty

Cofty ...Have you ever had children of your own? - Agonus

Yes, a boy and a girl.

OUTLAW

Hey Cedars..

Yes it can get confusing

It took some time and listening..

To those who were trying to explain themselves to me..

I have a better understanding of them now..

Thanks for the link..

............................. ...OUTLAW

When my first daughter was born... and I'm talking about the moment when I saw that first tiny, precious face, emerging as a separate entity from her mother... it was as if a switch went on. A switch in the back of my my mind that I never knew existed, and to this day, am not entirely sure just what exactly that switch was for... but it created a light that I never knew the warmth of until that moment.

Do you know what I'm talking about?

It's this sort of you-couldn't-possibly-understand-until-you've-experienced-it-for-yourself sort of feeling that is very similar to the presence of Deity that I speak of.

This is the best human example that I can conceive of. If this doesn't resonate then I'm not sure how else I would describe it.

cofty

Agonus - My son is my oldest. I was at the birth and the moment he was born remains the most profound moment of my entire life.

Its probably caused by the most massive surge of serotonin resulting from elation and relief.

There are deep evolutionary roots to our instinct to bond with a baby who posseses 50% of our genes and who is about to consume a large share of our resources for many years to come.

Its a gigantic leap to assume it tells us anything about the existence of a supernatural world.

To repeat my earlier question, how could we distinguish between a "subtle" god and no god?

King Solomon

You're right, Tams: I messed that up, as hope is an emotion and not a belief; of course beliefs can be based on emotions AND/OR factual knowledge.

And that raises a point: it's important to remember that BOTH emotions and knowledge influence our beliefs, eg a desire to read a written statement MAY allow the reader to interpret it with biases. Happens ALL the time, and hence why it's important to remember that we ALL carry a set of biases and it's important to keep that we're all susceptible to them. The goal in a science experiment is to design it so as to minimize such biases, since the results MUST be reproducible: if there's bias, another person repeating the experiment will discover them.

So in summary: faith is based on beliefs, which in turn are based on knowledge and emotions. Some faith is built primarily on emotion (hope, as in Hebrews 11) whereas other types of faith are based on knowledge and evidence.

On this:

"

By contrast, "belief" is for stuff which we can’t demonstrate. I believe that we will some day cure cancer, even though I can’t do an experiment to show it. I could wait a hundred years, but if it hadn’t been found, it might just need another hundred years.

I slightly disagreed with what the article said, in that beliefs are ALSO for that which CAN be demonstrated, eg I believe in gravity, which CAN be proven. Minor point, but wanted to clarify.

Satanus

I am not promoting theism w this post.

Agonus

I relate to the 'switch' illustration. I can remember exactly what it was that turned the switch for me. While it happened in a rented hotel conference room that the church used, i have since recognized that 'switch' as more like what the easterners call a chakra. Once it was opened that was all i needed to carry on on my own. My door, so to speak.

To the others,

Many would extrapolate an experience like this to prove a god exists, or their church is right, or whatever. Not me. I experimented for myself. It actually led me to a nonbelief in the biblegod. I know that people could jump on this and accuse me of having faith that there isn't a biblegod. Well, i don't totally discount yhwh, that he might not exist, somewhere, cowering in some little corner, outside the universe, or live in some tabernacle in israel, or something like that. But, i do doubt very much that that is the case. If he does exist, he is a hasbeen, anyway, who can't do anything for himself.

S

agonus

How can you distinguish between a "subtle" God and no God?

To quote Louis Armstrong... "Man, if you gotta ask, then you'll never know."

And in my experience, it's exactly that. It really is. Call me shallow if you so desire.

You just KNOW. Or you don't. It's that simple.

And if you don't? No big deal man, you still got an invitation to the party.

cofty

The "hiddenness of god" is one of the strongest arguments against theism.

If he exists then existing is all he does.

sabastious

"There are Atheists open to New Ideas ,should Evidence present itself"..

Hello Outlaw. There are only atheists who CLAIM that they are open to new ideas that present themselves about God. This implies that there is no evidence for the exsitence of a Creator and they are simply waiting. This is NOT the case and therefore atheism is not a logical choice, it simply can't be. Atheists are products of a religious environment, they are simply the opposite of what produced them. Like a son who chooses the opposite trade of his father just because it's the opposite. For example the western world was founded on Puritan values and that's why they have a thriving pornography industry because the industry gets to be OPPOSITE of what was imposed upon their generations for so long. Atheists get to be OPPOSITE of religion and that's where their comfort zone is. There is no need for more evidence of God, it already exists and if you don't accept it, you miss the boat.

-Sab

agonus

Though my concept of God has changed significantly over the years, I have not abandoned the concept of God altogether. You could say that God has simply not allowed me to do so.

Why aren't you an Atheist?

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