How are "hateful" atheists helping struggling witnesses on JWN or society in general? (page 15)

Chariklo

Sorry to have to say it, NC, that's utter rubbish. Pure bilge. You think that the atheists I know in real life can't discuss their beliefs with me?

LOL! Surely this can't be a cultural difference between the US and the UK? What kind of world do you live in? Where I live, anybody can discuss anything with anyone, and they do, and it's done with mutual respect and a genuine wish to know what the other person thinks, and a wish to understand them better.

That's the key. Openness of mind and a desire to understand each other better. In the world I live on it's not what a person thinks that counts but who they are, whether or not they are prejudiced and intolerant, and how they behave towards other people.

Oh. One exception. Oops. JW's.

Poor you. You say you live in a world where, apparently, "deep prejudice and distrust" come from talking about your unbelief. That, New Chapter, is very sad but is not the norm all over the world.

Christ Alone

In the world I live on it's not what a person thinks that counts but who they are, whether or not they are prejudiced and intolerant, and how they behave towards other people.

That's what it comes down to. Who they are, not what they believe. I like it... That's what true friends are made of. A far cry from JW thinking...

NewChapter

1. I talk to my atheist friends all the time about God (pro and con), why they've come to their conclusion and why I've come to mine. They know that I am not preaching at them. Often we don't even discuss "God", but discuss science only. We don't avoid the conversation. However, the difference in real life and here is that when we are face to face we are respectful of each other. I don't tell them that God has rejected them because they reject him, and they don't say that I'm delusional for reaching my conclusions. They know that I'm not going to condemn them for their beliefs or lack therof. However, sometimes (believers and non believers) when we get in front of our computer screen and are among people we don't have any emotional attachment to and will most likely never meet, we say things that we normally wouldn't in RL. It shouldn't be that way. I've said it before, and I'll say it again: There are real people with real feelings on the other end. Take Oompa for example. Some of us are going through extremely hard times that no one on the board knows about. We should be conscious that what we say can and will greatly effect the reader on the other end.

Obviously I can only speak in generalities when it comes to the many different personalities in real life, but this is the usual for me. Some of us don't even bother chancing it, because it is generally followed by preaching or questioning. I've had friends that were really open (I thought) and things would be just fine. But then, something would happen, a subject, an attitude, and their real feelings would come out. Because you see, it's bolded at the top. That is the underlying feeling, which is why we don't discuss it to this degree in real life. That's why we discuss it here.

We take offense at something that is unavoidable. If I believe that there is no god, then all your spiritual experience will simply be dismissed by me. Whether I do that out loud, or keep it to myself, does not change that I will think you are having experiences that are typical to humans, but crediting a god that is not there with them. That's where the term 'delusional' would pop up. We can say or think it with many different words, but that's one of them. NOW, most believers DO believe that atheists are rejecting God. And if you think about it, if you believe there is a god, then your only conclusion can be that we are rejecting that god! To which we would think you were 'delusional' or any other word phrase you'd like to use to substitute it. Whether you think God rejects an atheist for that or not is particular to different people, but to a believer, they must view that as a rejection.

In other words, we both think the other is rejecting reality.

This is a discussion forum---a place where we actually can speak up about these things and speak our minds. I won't be 'shamed' or pressured into being quiet because terms like 'militant', 'hateful', or evangelical are being thrown around. That's all some here are trying to do. To silence us. Well I live large portions of my life silent because believers can't handle my views, but that's not why I come here. I come here to talk about it. I get called names and such along the way, I get personally attacked. Which is why I don't do this in real life. Because here, attack away. I don't care. But in my real life, the attacks would hurt a great deal more.

NewChapter

Poor you. You say you live in a world where, apparently, "deep prejudice and distrust" come from talking about your unbelief. That, New Chapter, is very sad but is not the norm all over the world.

And now you see the danger of sharing your personal experience in real life. Because of this shit. Poor me? Total denial? I'm telling you my experience, and it is the experience of many others. And you know what---YOUR experience does not necessarily define the world either!

Yeah---so what about that believers? I have shared my personal experience, my daily struggles, my relationship issues that come with being an atheist, and believer has come along, mocked me (poor you!), said that my experience was 'rubbish' (gee, sorry Char, I'll remember that next time---my very real life experience is 'rubbish').

Gonna jump all over Char and tell her there was a real person who shared real feelings behind that post?

I don't care. But LOVE when it all comes out.

sabastious

NC you really get hung up on certain words. Believers can be just as predatory as non believers. The problem is being predatory, not having a strong conviction to a certain idealogy.

-Sab

Qcmbr

Hate , like so many concepts , is a misused idea that is co - opted into a broader simple battle that sorts the world into a black/white,good/bad, right/wrong and so on. Religion and faith is at its heart nothing more than reductionist thinking that pits a hero against a villain. To a xian the discussion is ultimately not about them or us its Christ v Lucifer.Hate is the opposite of Love and must be Lucifer's. Hateful atheists, hateful statements , hateful anything is, to the xian, Satanic.

One of my personal epiphanies was to realise that 'hate' and other extreme memes could sometimes be beneficial, enlightening, useful and moral.Sometimes you have to use an emotional state to produce effectual change, to induce positive crisis and to stand up for authentic relationships. A hate or love or antipathy filled response means much more when it is not simply a metaphor for a mythical war. My love for my family is more authentic now that it isnt filtered through an imaginary , more important, relationship with invisible beings.

This , authenticity, is what this sometimes 'hateful' atheist offers. When I eviscerate an immoral but pious piece of god v satan fluff I do it because I want a more rational world, a world where my relationships are respected for real shared experiences rather than continually reinterpreted as manifestations of a deity or a demon's will. I offer me, naked and raw , that's the fragile but incredible gift that godless self awareness brings. I discovered that hate and love can coexist as tools to be used at appropriate times and faith induced guilt has no place any more in my life.

NewChapter

Define predatory!

Define it twice.

Once for a believer

Again for an atheist.

Christ Alone

And if you think about it, if you believe there is a god, then your only conclusion can be that we are rejecting that god!

You can't think that every person is thinking this. Many of us have our "current" understanding of things. Beliefs, ideas, feelings, etc change. What I understand today may not be the same tomorrow. How sad that you have the sort of friends that you can't communicate to without fear that they will bring up God in a way that makes you think that they feel that you are wrong. I know that I'm wrong in probably most of what I think I understand. In fact I think all people are. We think we understand so much more than we actually do. That's why I don't have conversation where I am trying to convince someone that they HAVE to change what they believe. I don't do that. I talk about what I believe. I ask questions. I listen (and read) what others are saying and why they believe that way. Not so I can change them. But because I am constantly adding to what I understand.

Are you rejecting God? Yeah. But why should that make me angry? You don't believe in God. Big whoop. I do. Big whoop. As long as I am not harming you and you are not harming me, why should it matter that much? Why should I have to call you militant? If someone is being hateful, I'll call them on it (believer or non believer). But just because you talk about what you believe, that doesn't bother me. When it gets personal and it gets to calling me names and questioning my sanity or intelligence, that's when I speak up. And you do too, just as you SHOULD!