by Chariklo 553 Replies latest jw friends
if your own children/grandchildren had beliefs in well let's say a talking bear, would you make that child feel stupid just to ensure it never made that mistake again - belief in something without hard facts.
So you want atheists to treat believers like children?
And if you feel stupid....maybe you need to ask why you feel stupid. Not blame someone else for that feeling. That what being a grown up is about. Not constantly blaming others for how we feel.
I have to say as well, not everyone who has never read atheists books, or perused science conclusions, or questioned God BEFORE coming to this site is stupid/mental/having a breakdown etc, some well I will speak for me, I never did because I thought I was being LOYAL TO JEHOVAH, really, as hard as that may be for some to understand, that is why I never read certain thing's, hung out with certain people, took certain job's and yes in retrospect I should of questioned more because I had doubt's, but when you have had very few be loyal to you in life, only than can you understand the weight one would put on being loyal to God.
I'm not getting your point...you just described me when I believed....and I no longer believe in god.
Are you attempting to say atheists don't understand believers. I was a believer. I truly believed heart and 'soul'. My belief controlled my behaviour. I loved my god concept. It was real to me. It was an internal struggle even reading this site at first.
I don't believe anyone here is stupid...I think that belief in an invisible god is stupid...there is a difference. I think my belief was stupid. I think many (not all) believers think that if we say their belief is stupid we think they are. This is not true.
I think atheist mentality is partly born from a certain arrogance, the arrogance to assert that there is definitely, absolutely no God and we know beyond any doubt that there is no God.
An example of this "atheist mentality" that asserts there is "absolutely, definitely, beyond any doubt, no God" would help . . . even one would do.
If you're wishing to assert that atheists deal in "certainties" and "absolutes" . . . then you are on dangerous ground. History will tell you that this has always been the exclusive preserve of religion . . . and, it would appear, remains so today. There are two ways you can use a label . . . either to represent something or to mis-represent it. People here are using labels to mis-represent anothers position for their own purposes, which is totally farcical btw.
The thing is . . . if you present an argument in a debate, then it will be attacked. If there is no attack, then there is no debate. We all agree . . . yay . . . group hug . . . new thread . . . new debate. You should expect to have your posts scrutinised, questioned, ridiculed, yes, even scorned. You see your own presidential candidates do it FFS! . . . it's the nature of debate! If you are sound in your argument, you want it to prevail and will attack the flaws in opposing arguments . . . sarcasm and ridicule included. (sarcasm gets a bad rap, and is often a good point-maker IMO).
I honestly believe we're all too thin skinned. Free speech means listening to stuff you may not want to hear . . and having to explain yourself when asked difficult questions. Being wrong. Not really knowing. Maybe even ignoring some of the silly stuff. Putting up with stupidity. You have to do it in life . . . why not in a debate?
If you spend page after page defending a weak argument with poor logic and evasiveness . . . are you really being attacked? . . . or is your argument simply getting the treatment it deserves? "Oh, I'm getting ganged up on . . . poor me" . . . when maybe it's just that your argument is so full of holes it's bleeding all over the thread.
Christ Alone post #732 is worth a 2nd read . . . promoting a belief on an open forum is never going to be easy, because it is essentially preaching. The height of the challenge itself demands that you use sound reasoning, logic, and a worthy argument, even if there are remaining points of difference. The realisation for some, that they don't have that compelling argument, is a very tender spot, and that's probably a good time to go for a walk.
If you accept the fact that they are going to defend no matter what, that will help increase the quality of the conversation or debate. . . . sab
What you are describing is a tightly closed mind. True . . . recognising that helps. The natural reaction however, is to prise it open by attacking it's ideas through reasoned argument. Those ideas will be challenged ("attacked" if you like drama) . . . unless you have the powers of King Canute. I'm personally very grateful to all those who "attacked" my beliefs thoroughly and mercilessly . . . I learned how to think instead of what to think . . . I owe them plenty.
Yadda Yadda 2 said,
They scorn believers because most believers do believe in the absurd and sometimes parody and mockery is a very effective way to shock people into seeing how ridiculous their view is.
Yeah, it's called persuasion. And rather than the scorner having a sincere desire to show the dumb theist the err of his repressive beliefs, the scorner likely seeks confirmation of his/her own beliefs in the victim's potetnial conversion by getting them to internalize the scorner's view. Therefore, the cognitive dissonance religionists are often accused of having is every bit as possible in the atheist and/or agnostic.
I gotta admit I was kinda stunned reading that NC only just DA herself , nice pic by the way NC and please it's not having a go, but it's hard to get round how someone can be so vocal, and condeming- sorry thats how I read your views at time's- and still be worried about the friggin neighbour cos he's and elder, or the fact that people will see whats in your loungeroom, why do those people's thought's on you even matter, I would of thought you would of let people like that know EXACTLY where you stand, you have no problem here going for the jugular, but once again in real life people are'nt so tough. By the way you are an incredibly intelligent woman, your message's if you are truly wanting to show other's another line or reasoning could be a bit kinder. I know some may scoff at that, but even NC has said she has been attacked so I am sure you inderstand where I am coming from.
Whoa, hey Ammo, don't hold back. Looks like I handled this very personal issue, a decision that we all struggle with here, in just a horrible manner. Although I never asked for your input in this highly personal decision, since you have so graciously given it---followed by lots of love and snuggles---I suppose I shall address it Yes----I never speak my mind in real life---yeah---I'm a computer warrior---I'm sure if you consult with my real life friends thats exactly what they will tell you. *cough, cough* I'll send them here to testify.
I see my mistake, when making the difficult decision about permanently severing every f**king close relationship I developed over decades, was to not think about what Ammo thinks I should do. Oh, but it wasn't about that, no, it was about me hesitating to just speak my mind and let the chips fall where they may---cuz Ammo said so. YOU think I go for the jugular? How about how you just handled a very personal decision that only I have to live with---not you? Oh no----of course---because you would never scoff---right?
I shall remain stunned that I was attacked for a decision I had to make, and all of my motives were told to me by a complete stranger. You understand me so well and what I have just given up. You got me all figured out.
Believers are absolutely right. This is a function of perception as presented by the brain. As a believer I had a real relationship with god, I received information and said my prayers in return. I knew god existed, I had faith that future events would occur ( including my own resurrection) and I got frustrated when people would consistently refuse to even try to pray or contemplate that my experiences with divinity were real. I was Mormon. In my reality miracles happened but when they happened to people of other faiths there was always a certain amount of critical doubt attached ( Satan/they were fooled/God was somehow trying to help them to the correct path - Mormonism) , ditto for answers from God. When the answer they got from God coincided with what I knew about God then clearly that was the same source, anything else and it was made up or Satan inspired. Sometimes Satan would play a clever game and would reveal something right but with an embedded lie ( Christ is real and he is coming in 1975) and would divert many of god's children to false manmade paths like the JWs.
The man wearing glasses with blue filters really perceives the visual world as blue. The filters mean it is impossible to see red or green.
The believer wearing glasses with god/reptile/aliens/faeries/communist/Republican/the Secret filters really perceives the world as expected. It is impossible to see it as anything other. Everything they see confirms their perception.
Being challenged on a perception filter is deeply personal. It isn't just someone saying that you've got a fact here or there wrong. It is someone saying you have something wrong with your brain, your whole worldview is invalid, you are living a lie, their filters are better than yours. No one in their right mind would sacrifice their whole world view over a single argument. Each discussion and debate is therefore jarring, neither side can present sufficient critical momentum to overcome an entire , physically wired - neuron by neuron , worldview. It takes something truly critical and emotionally shattering to reject a worldview. It may be an accumulation of negative information breaking an internal dam or it may a slightly unrelated crisis like a death or betrayal. It is almost never a single debate, post or argument.
Being an atheist means removing a set of perception filters ( not all, I'm still carrying lots of family, culture , educational and peer induced biases and reality assumptions). For those who were former believers it hurts to take them off. It's similar to taking off the filter that you are in love with someone. Accepting that you are no longer in a relationship can hurt like buggery and leave scars. As a former 'lover' it is painful to be told ( by other 'lovers') that my state of lovelessness is actually just another form of love. Atheism is not a form of belief.
I totally understand the feeling of being told your beliefs are wrong. Continuing the lover analogy it is absolutely reprehensible to have not only your own love denigrated but to insult your lover as well is anger inducing. When an atheist confronts a god believer it is to doubt both parties god and devotee. Why then do I ( I won't speak for other atheists here ) stick my beak into others sacred , joy inducing and emotionally fulfilling relationships with their god? Simply because I can't idly watch abusive relationships. I was in a beautiful one for 35 years. I really loved it. I wish, in hindsight, someone had got me to confront the abuse earlier.
One last reason why I especially respond to post JW evangelicals is because they use this forum , to my mind, as a blind date service, offering a new lover to replace the old abusive JW one.
Just my thoughts.
I think the title of this topic is revealing. May I ask the believers here if you really think that atheists like myself are "intent on scorning believers"? Let me tell you that I'm not. It's never my intention to scorn anybody but if, in the course of a healthy and vigorous debate, a poster reveals himself to be intellectually dishonest or constantly ignores proofs offered or twists the very meaning of words to suit their dogma - well then the scorn is invited, not visited by the intent of a horrible atheist.
The first few years of my posting history here will show anyone who's interested that I too was a sincere believer, a Christian. And yes, I remember feeling intimidated by atheists who, thanks to a lifetime as a devout Jehovah's Witness, seemed like scary aliens to me! But I'm grateful to them. I'm grateful that they ridiculed, belittled and thoroughly dismantled the structure of faith which had propped up my JW beliefs.
That's what I try to do. Attacking JW doctrine on an ex-JW forum is easy, almost everyone is on your side and is ready to help out with references, quotes, scans and research - a good thing too! But when it come to attacking the very same structure of faith which holds up not just JW beliefs but the beliefs of many of the faithful who are here . . . well then it gets messy.
Faith is the problem.
I really do try not to scorn believers and I don't think I ever have but I will ridicule and scorn faith. My head understands the difference and I know - intellectually - that I'm not attacking the person. But my heart remembers what it was like not so many years ago when I was on the other side of the debate.
I do get it, I do sympathise.
But think of it this way. What common cause brought us all to this place? Our JW past? Yes of course, but what does it tell you that there are forums just like this one catering for communities amongst former Mormons, Adventists, Scientologists, Jews, Muslims and any other faith group or denomination you care to name? If you're looking back to the Watchtower to understand how you were fooled you are not looking back far enough.
Faith is the problem.
Terry, I think I understand what you are saying, but from my perspective you are writing after experience of Jehovah's Witnesses, who are, in my personal experience, highly destructive of people's freedom, free wil, and ability to think freely.
I've been reflecting on the...to me...surprising and unexpected breadth and variety of responses to the thread I began with no idea that it would run into as many views and pages as it has. I've already said I started it from my own observation and experience. In fact, it would have been truer to say I started it impelled by my own experience of interacting with the spread of atheists and agnostics on the board.
Yes. We all here, or mostly all, have the shared experience of JW's, but I don't have the experience of a lifetime in it or have extended family there as so many of you do. My lifetime experience is of a deep faith within a church. It wasn't any lack of faith that got me entangled with the Witnesses, it was a combination of kindness as they stood there in the pouring rain, the tale of one of the discrimination he had suffered before he became a Witness, and then my own attempts to firstly understand why they believed the bizarre things they do and secondly a hope that I could get them to understand why I believed what I do. Finally, there was very bad trouble in my local church. Not having had previous experience of the Witnesses, I didn't know that all of that made me a prime target for them, and that there was no way on earth they were going to be the least bit interested in why I believed what I did.
Anyway, some of that I've said before on this board. Like Ammo, after I emerged from the JW's eight months ago in a state of traumatised shock, I was unable to open a Bible. I simply didn't want to know. Like Ammo, I had loved it...all my life. It was like a deep raw bleeding wound. Gradually, very much with the help of this site, I healed. I've made some good friends here. My family and friends have been so pleased and relieved, but they do not understand what happened to me. People here do.
I too rejected everything, or almost everything. I too felt scornful...scornful of myself too for having fallen into the Watchtower snare. I loved the wit and humour here as much as I loved and relished the amount of knowledge and information. I loved the fun. But I still had a free brain and a free mind.
Recently, as I affirmed, here and elsewhere, that although my thoughts were changing and developing as I processed all that had happened to me in the last few years, I still firmly believed in the existence of a God and in a spiritual dimension...I found that this was my baseline, if you will...I noticed that some of those around me had no tolerance even for that minimalist belief that I was expressing. And I observed, here on the forum, that some others who expressed their own faith were pounced on and mocked. I didn't like that much.
At the point where I started this thread I had just experienced some vocal opposition...perfectly valid on a public forum, no complaints from me...and I'd just seen yet another person being hounded. I've no idea which thread it was now. I wondered just why the atheists I know in real life do not behave like that, but on the forum, they do.
And so this thread was born.
As I read Terry's post above, I suddenly realised that one reason might be because of the JW experience. Those who have only experienced the concept of God as presented by the Watchtower, the vindictive view of a Jehovah determined to wipe out almost all of mankind because they "take his name in vain" or don't follow his word or some such nonsense....people who don't understand that there are other concepts of the divine might very well react to the people they insistently still, it seems almost unconsciously, lump together as ...dirty word it seems to them..."believers".
So, while the strength and source of some of these r reactions and criticisms has certainly surprised me, I do not regret for one minute having begun this thread. I don't like the ganging up on people who have a faith that I have witnessed here and elsewhere. And the nicest surprise has been the support that I've had in public and private!
As I read Terry's post above, I suddenly realised that one reason might be because of the JW experience. Those who have only experienced the concept of God as presented by the Watchtower, the vindictive view of a Jehovah determined to wipe out almost all of mankind because they "take his name in vain" or don't follow his word or some such nonsense....people who don't understand that there are other concepts of the divine might very well react to the people they insistently still, it seems almost unconsciously, lump together as ...dirty word it seems to them..."believers".
Atheism is not a form of belief.
Imo, atheism is a form of belief. You cannot remove your glasses without having to put on another set, so the choosing of that set is the most important thing. The first pair of glasses were not chosen by us, so the next pair should be greatly considered. Some pairs are more hindering than others, but to say that you do not believe in your atheism, but still feel compelled to preach it on a public form seems inconsistant to me. Atheism doesn't get a bad wrap, rude people get a bad wrap. Instead of training others to be rude, atheist "preachers" should be training new recruits to be kinder and more considerate than their predecessors. The fact is that atheist preachers BELIEVE in the positive effects of leaving gods behind and they use their lives as evidence. They put up the lives of atheists up against the lives of believers and compare when really we should not be doing that because believers and atheists are not merely stereotypes, they are people with hopes, dreams and fears.
-Sab
