by Christ Alone 295 Replies latest jw friends
Healthworker, I've just sent you a PM.
hlw can I read so much information? Hmmm. Ooops! I just realised that through multitasking this end while I'm reading this, I've made a huge mistake! The groups comment isn't derived from rather be in hades, but from what OnTheWayOut wrote.
Apologies to both rather be in hades and OTWO.
Thanks Chariklo
no worries. it's hard keeping track of all the different conversations we might have going on at once. damn you firefox and multiple tabbed browsing. i wonder how much productivity among workers has dropped with multitabbed browsing :P
You just can't take such surveys and really get an understanding of the issues.
Yeah, that's why I said a few posts ago that I saw the flaw in this thread yesterday after I posted it, and after I saw how many differing views there are. The flaws, as I see them, are as follows:
1. Not everyone will post on this thread. So even if it APPEARS that there are more atheists than believers or vice versa, it will not be an accurate ratio
2. There are such a number of differing views that it is impossible to split a group into even "Atheist" "Agnostic" and "Believer
The problem relating this to the question "Did you stop beating your wife" is that nearly everyone here DID believe in God at one time, since this is an exJW forum. So it would be like getting a thousand people that DID beat their wife together and asking them "Did you stop". So it is appropriate in this context, I believe.
"Jesus" should not even enter such a discussion, neither should Allah, Jehovah, Mohammed, Abraham, Buddha, or whoever.
And that is why I wasn't specific. I didn't ask who was Christian here and who was not. It was to get an understanding of who still believes in some sort of intelligent creator, and who does not. That was my point. But I DO see that an accurate accounting cannot be accurately done in this context.
What I would LIKE is to know who, after leaving the WT, still believes in an intelligent creator, and who does not.
Try using new windows, instead of tabs. Simpler, imo.
S
"What I would LIKE is to know who, after leaving the WT, still believes in an intelligent creator, and who does not."
Can an intelligent Creator come from nothing?
Ah, leavingwt, that's the big question!
It reminds me of the Douglas Adams books, Hitch Hike's Guide to the Galaxy ( worth a r rad if you don't know it and you like scifi mixed with wit, humour and satire). The answer to everything, the biggest question in the Universe is...
42.
Yes, I believe in an intelligent creator, but I am not what is normally meant by a creationist.
PS I suspect that the Creation account in the Bible, being. Something akin to myth mixed with allegory, allows for the mysterious and mystical fact that the creator in a way we don't understand both precedes nothing and is somehow outside it. I suspect that will turn out to be the case. A creator doesn't conflict with science because science includes the creator, who is both in it and of it, with whose laws science conforms and whose laws science discovers and uncovers.
In my view
NC, the point wasn't to quibble over whether the miracles happened or not, especially in a "Christian" sense, but to discuss the psychology behind believing or not. Using the miracles was just a device to see if even seeing an actual miracle would be enough "proof" to an average atheist.
It appears that some, like cofty, would believe if ON DEMAND a miracle was performed. Although I think the amazment would wear off rather quickly and more "rational" explanations would be proposed instead of attributing it to an intelligent creator.
Others, like OTWO, would not accept their own eyewitness to a "miracle" and instead would get checked out psychologically to see if he could trust his perception. Other than a note in the clouds that stated, "I am God and I cured cancer", there is very little "proof" of God's existence that would be accepted.
My whole point, and I acknowledge that I would be wrong in many cases, is that the comment that nearly every atheist makes "I would believe if there was proof" is an understatement and there is very little, save for God appearing to say that He exists, that would convince an atheist.
If we witnessed a severed ear being healed back to a head, we are going to take notice!
I believe that! But not EVERYONE would, is my point. It still would not be enough for many. I could imagine (yes just imagine), that there would be those that would downplay the ear being healed and show that either his ear was NOT cut off and their perception was wrong, or another medical reason why it healed quickly. Someone that absolutely does not believe in these things is not going to all of a sudden think, "I was wrong. God does exist."
Here is where I go into dangerous territory, and this is only MY belief. I believe that God DID appear and tell us that He exists, in the form of Jesus. But people still did not accept Him. It still wasn't good enough. My belief is that after a couple thousand years that "evidence" was thrown out as fake and gave people even more reason not to believe. Atheists say, "God is not a good communicator." But I do believe that He has and does communicate, but it's not what some people want to hear. I believe that He has felt that the scriptures were sufficient and people can either believe or not believe at this point without any more inspired scripture being added. I'm sure that this last paragraph will have a sentence or more quoted and someone will go off on it, but these are just MY views. I'm not condemning anyone. I'm not trying to use the Bible as an authority and say "It says, so this is" or anything like that. My argument is not "Well, the Bible said it!"
It is just my view that there is plenty of reason to believe in an intellgent creator. And I believe that there is plenty of reason even outside the Bible.
I'm really not going to comment more on the Bible in this way, because I'm not trying to use that as any "proof". I believe it and it comments on things that I've thought about, and that is why I've brought it up, but I don't want to be accused of using it as "proof" of anything, especially since atheists don't view it as an authority in any way anyway.
Can an intelligent Creator come from nothing?
No. Just like the singularity could not have come from nothing. There has to be a place for "eternal" whether it is the universe or God.
stay on topic CA - we are closing in on the survey. let the newcomers answer. we are going for gold
