Re: Image of God - the Bible or Christ?
Who says the bible has anything to do with god? Only the bible. Othere religions say different. Ie. the image of god is Krishna not the bible OR Christ. Why do we only have two options? I think thats godist.,,LOLImage of God - the Bible or Christ?
by tec 132 Replies latest jw friends
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tec
You have as many options as you like, Still, if you are exploring other gods/goddesses.
But as to the Father of Christ... that God... well, His image is Christ.
Peace,
tammy
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Band on the Run
So, your point is that Shelby and you have a direct line to the true Christ that no one else on the forum has. It is more provocative than the Governing Body claiming to be the exclusive channel for Christ. Indeed, you are merely restating what the Governing Body imposes on Jehovah's Witnesses. I notice that your Christ has no message. Your Christ never had flesh. He is not tied to the Jewish religion in which he was born, lived, and died. History does not matter.
This is a broken record. I am sincerely happy that your beliefs make you happy. Your constant statements of mere assumptions, guesses do not make them truth for anyone besides yourself. Most people on this earth don't know anything about Jesus, except as a imperialist tool. What makes you correct and Hindus, Moslems, Buddhists, agnostics, and atheists wrong?
I affirm that I believe through will in Christ. It is my personal decision. The belief is more gut, a desire, than rational thought. Rational belief proves this Jesus is Christ myth is only a figment of my particular culture. I affirm the Nicene and Apostle's Creed. Do I believe in the actual text? No. I see the Creeds as a group of Christians struggling to define the unknowable. It is total nonsense that a group convened by Constantine would have true insight. Constantine had the power to impose a solution. Our present faith is merely a reflection of historical accident. The Creed was negotiated, not pure.
You are the same as the Governing Body, which is fine for you. It is nice that you have faith. I imagine it is comforting to have an instant Jesus experience and never have faith based on doubts and complexities. Groovy Jesus. He will cure whatever ails you. The Santa Claus Christ is repulsive to me. Posting is never going to change my mind. All you do is constantly say that personal experience alone brings you Christ. Christ would never exclude so many humans. According to you, He died for a handful of groovy Jesus people. More importantly, I see the church as a community of people asking the same questions as a community. You would eliminate any community.
I have no clue what you believe in your inner mind. You could believe in Satan for all I know. There was no point for incarnate God in your book. Jesus of Nazareth is a total hoax in your book.
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Chariklo
Band, where did all that come from? How do you get that from anything Tec has written?
I too say and believe the Nicene and Apostles Creed. They don't lead me to draw the conculsions you have over what Tec has written. I just don't understand how you can possibly draw them.
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Band on the Run
I suggest you put on your thinking cap b/c Tec leads to chaos. This very thread is proof of what is so dangeorus about personal Christs (and the experience of Christ is always mediated by our inner temperament and gut). Christ is community. Unlike Tec, in my opinion, I believe I am a true Christian b/c my experience and intellect (of course, I do not think intellect alone leads to Christ) leads me to conclude that Christ is God. If Christ is not God, we are mere YHWHists. Not Yahwists or Jehovists but the true translation, YHWH.
I studied the gospels and Paul's writings both in personal and academic settings. My belief is the mainstream of Christianity. I excell academically b/c I memorize details well. I would go further with some more creativity. Everything I have written is available through commercial, not solely Christian, popular books and journal articles. It would be a shame to go through college and then ignore what I learned. The lasting importance of college for me was not learning particular knowledge but critical thinking.
Tec can believe any weird junk. I claim an equal right to state that I am in the mainstream. She is outside (where I do believe she is very comfortable and relishes it). This is a very old and now trite conversation.
Any person with my education and background would come forth with the same conclusions. I know for a fact that what I wrote is taught at General Theological Seminary and Union Theological Seminary in NYC. Union is world famous. Priests discuss what i wrote with me. It is possible to have an individual view, informed my academics, and still believe in Christ. I do believe traditions are important and so did Jesus. Over and over again, he engaged in Jewish worship. Jesus was very Jewish. The historical Jesus, the flesh and blood, is essential to the story. Tec believes in Gnosticism in many respects.
I am not stating she is wrong in her view. She goes off base when she insists that anyone else believes her view. I don't expect people to agree with me -- unless I am in a sophisticated setting. Christology is not my main area of expertise. In fact, it is far beyond my niche. Contrary in many respects to my professional training.
I can talk with Madeleine L'Engle, study Hans Kung, all the scholars getting wealth with their popular books, read the Gnostics. It is beyond my imagination how anyone can read Leo's posts and still believe it is all just in your mind. Unlike Tec, I assert my God is real. My God was incarnated, lived as a human, suffered, was crucified and ressurected. Christ is present in the now. Otherwise, you have a Jewish do-gooder with middling talents - all of them within strands of Judaism. Nothing very radical.
In the context of the entire world, Jesus is not very relevant.
One of the significant moments of my life was my female prof explaining that God has many sons. Being a son of God is no unique title. The Son of Man tradition is what counts. Yet, despite every king of Israel and prophets being a son of God, nowhere is there any mention or hint of a daughter of God. Band to God (especially JAH, YHWH)-go f...... yourself. There are other Gods. Jesus treated women with great respect. I see little continuity between Genesis and later Judaism. I totally reject YHWH as a matter of will. Christ is worthy of my worship ( or at least the faith tradition where I am now).
Christ needs legitimacy. Someday Tec will actually articulate, in detail, what her experience of Christ is. If I encountered a Christ of my own invention, I would include details for others. It reminds me of con artists who speak with the dead. You are speaking to the dead, the not live, and all they talk about is stuff like where the car keys are, you relative cares for you, s/he is watching, be relaxed. I want to know what death is. Is there any God? Does it matter?
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Band on the Run
I was taught the reason we have what we call mainstream Christianity today has to do with political, social, and economic reasons. A faith tradition must be able to travel through many generations. Gnosticism appealed to an elite. Mysticism generally attracts a single generation. This personal Christ is talking to me alone does not have legs, in my view.
How do you know it is Christ? Satan is capable of imitating Jesus? Why Christ and not Krishna or Vishnu? The cultural specificity convinces me that a purely personal experience is likely not valid. Why would Christ appear to only Europeans?
Is the experience akin to an orgasm? A good Beatles song? Does it resemble Rembrandt, Dali or Warhol. Notice that the depictions in art, and even, music vary with the ages. Is Christ a flat icon? A lamb or a fish? Giotto or DaVinci. I would personally go with Michaelangelo. Warhol's depiction, while not my favorite, shows how commercial Christ has become.
How do you judge the legitimacy of your experience? No one except Paul experience the blinding light.
My Christ would favor progessive politics. Romney voters experience a more conservative Christ.
I have always prayed for no blinding lights. Additionally, I believe most of this conversation has socioeconomic roots and not the merits of the positiion. Christ cannot be all things to all humans at the same time. (and would He so species specific in real life?). Maybe whales and rats have a Christ. How would we know? My dog never shared her opinions on the topic.
I completely understand that you enjoy your experience of Christ. My question is it truly Christ? What details convince you it is Christ? You say to test it. What are the requirements for testing? I honestly would love to hear more details than vague statements.
Not that I am entitled to any explanation. To summarize, it may make sense to you. I am no judge. It makes no sense to me.
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OnTheWayOut
The bible has conflicting views on God. Which to believe?
Tammy, Christ is not giving the same answers to all that he calls to. He gives conflicting message. If you want to say the flaw is with the humans, why do you know you are not one receiving the wrong message as opposed to some other persons?
And Christ didn't interfere when many people joined dangerous mind-control cults like the JW's. You can say all day that this is not his fault or that he called and they didn't listen. But others are free to say that means he is not guiding many of the most sincere believers desirous of serving properly.
So what do you have to support that God changed... rather than that the people were mistaken.
Tammy, I was giving the benefit of the doubt. Actually, the God of the Bible has not changed. He continues to be a killer, approving of genocide and rape. The Bible doesn't represent this Jesus you have imagined, and Jesus doesn't represent or present an image of God.
"You diligently study the scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life.These are the scriptures that testify about me; yet you refuse to come to me to have life."
You deny Christ turned to the scriptures for authority then cite an example of how Christ did just so.
Hey, believe what you want. But when you go preaching it, I may point out the shortcomings.
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Terry
We stand or fall in our response to the God we know.
Worship is man's natural reaction to an encounter with the living God.
For humans unacquainted with anything but a book or a prayer or a seat in an arena where "god" is spoken of no reality exists.
Idolatry becomes necessary. What better way to serve an unknown and unknowable except by erecting an IMAGE?
The IMAGE of "god" has no effect on the life of the idolator. None at all.
But, the transformation in the life of someone who has God living inside is a beacon so bright there is a glory reflected of how real such a god must be.
The goodness in any of us is attracted to such light so compelling is the majesty of such reality.
The sin in any of us wrenches away in the cynical mockery which is the only refuge of disbelief.
Those for whom such a God is undeniable no explanation is necessary. No image is required.
Those for whom such a God is impossible no explanation is possible. Only the image is real.
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still thinking
"You diligently study the scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life.These are the scriptures that testify about me; yet you refuse to come to me to have life."
Kind of ironic to quote scriptures to make your point about not following what they say...lol
Follow christ not the bible....how do I know that?....the bible told me so....ROFL
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Pterist
Christ is the ultimate revelation of God as Father.
The written word reveals Gods character, holiness and righteousness.
The creation reveals God's power and awesomeness.
To him who has "more" more is revealed, with accountability.
Obviously, "knowing" God as Father as revealed in his relationship with his eternal Begot Son IN US is the ultimate treasure in clay pots. 2 Corinthians 4:
4 Therefore, since through God’s mercy we have this ministry, we do not lose heart. 2 Rather, we have renounced secret and shameful ways; we do not use deception, nor do we distort the word of God. On the contrary, by setting forth the truth plainly we commend ourselves to everyone’s conscience in the sight of God. 3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. 4 The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 5 For what we preach is not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, and ourselves as your servants for Jesus’ sake. 6 For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” [a] made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of God’s glory displayed in the face of Christ.
7 But we have this treasure in jars of clay to show that this all-surpassing power is from God and not from us. 8 We are hard pressed on every side, but not crushed; perplexed, but not in despair; 9 persecuted, but not abandoned; struck down, but not destroyed. 10 We always carry around in our body the death of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus may also be revealed in our body. 11 For we who are alive are always being given over to death for Jesus’ sake, so that his life may also be revealed in our mortal body. 12 So then, death is at work in us, but life is at work in you.