Image of God - the Bible or Christ?

by tec 132 Replies latest jw friends

myelaine

because He knew their fate, Tammy...
love michelle
NewChapter

But regardless of any of that... the only thing in that book that IS the image of God (stated to be so, looked upon as)... is Christ. If a person chooses to follow Christ, then HE is who they follow.
See, this is where your argument fails. You write quite a bit about the lies and mistakes in the bible---but then you insist that THIS part is true. That is where is all falls apart. After spending a great deal of time discrediting much written, we then are told to look at Christ in the bible and go with that.
As far as fullfilling the law? I don't know. This is a pretty bi-polar god, so it is not always clear the motivation. Since I don't believe a god was behind any of it, I would say it simply reflected the culture of the day, and Jesus was a man of his times, things were changing, so the found a fuzzy way to make that legitimate. BUT going from the standpoint that a god was behind all of it---perhaps the law was a kind of 'tenderizer'. Perhaps that law was put into place to beat the will out of these 'hard-hearted' people so that thousands of years later would listen to Jesus.
Whatever value it had, Jesus valued it highly. As far as 'written' 'said' or whatever else. I'm not a code breaker, and don't believe that the bible was written in some lofty code. So I'm not good at looking for 'clues' to try and crack it. I just read what it says, and figure if it was important to communicate, it will be there. If it's hidden in a bunch of word games, it probably is beyond my capability, and certainly beyond my interest, to break down every word and pick at it until it says what I want it to say.
tec

because He knew their fate, Tammy...
Weeping indicates love and sadness... not anger and a call for vengeance. (that is religion; that is man)
Love and sadness is a parent or loved one weeping over children or friends who choose a path that puts them in harm.
As for their fate, Christ also said... 'You will not see me again until you say, blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD'
So fate not fixed. Unless you also consider the words of Paul... that all israel will be saved.
But that is between them and God. Judgment is not ours to make. And God may have mercy upon whomever he chooses to have mercy upon.
Peace,
tammy
tec

See, this is where your argument fails. You write quite a bit about the lies and mistakes in the bible---but then you insist that THIS part is true. That is where is all falls apart. After spending a great deal of time discrediting much written, we then are told to look at Christ in the bible and go with that.
No. It is not true because the bible says it is true. Nor even because there are many witnesses to that Truth. Truth is in the teachings of Christ. Truth is in the love within them, and Him. That is enough truth to go from the bible TO Christ. In spirit, as He says to do. Then he can confirm that.
Regardless, if one IS listening to the bible and using that for their argument... that book says that Christ is the Image of God, and the Truth.
Either way, how someone comes up with something else as being the image of God (man, religion, writings)... I do not know.
As far as fullfilling the law? I don't know. This is a pretty bi-polar god, so it is not always clear the motivation. Since I don't believe a god was behind any of it, I would say it simply reflected the culture of the day, and Jesus was a man of his times, things were changing, so the found a fuzzy way to make that legitimate. BUT going from the standpoint that a god was behind all of it---perhaps the law was a kind of 'tenderizer'. Perhaps that law was put into place to beat the will out of these 'hard-hearted' people so that thousands of years later would listen to Jesus.
The law was put into place because they did not know how to live free. Because they did not have the law written upon their hearts. Their hearts were too hard. But instead of using the law as a mirror, to keep an eye upon oneself... they used the law as a judge against others. It became a weapon. So that they spoke of the speck in their brother's eye, but failed to see the plank in their own eye.
Whatever value it had, Jesus valued it highly. As far as 'written' 'said' or whatever else. I'm not a code breaker, and don't believe that the bible was written in some lofty code. So I'm not good at looking for 'clues' to try and crack it. I just read what it says, and figure if it was important to communicate, it will be there. If it's hidden in a bunch of word games, it probably is beyond my capability, and certainly beyond my interest, to break down every word and pick at it until it says what I want it to say.
Who was speaking about code?
Christ spoke of the law they 'knew'; the one that had oft been mishandled and misapplied (due to a lack of love and mercy... which all the law is meant to stem from)... and then corrected it with the truth.
Peace,
tammy
Band on the Run

Pls. explain what you mean by the image of God. Christians believe Christ is God. Paul speaks of Christ as the center. Something which Jesus of Nazareth never explained. The only merit I see in your argument is that it is your feeling which you believe is fact. Well, it may be. The evidence is incredibly unlikely, though. All you do is state your belief, not any rationale. You cannot dismiss the Bible (which I find ridiciulous b/c it shows the beliefs and stories that were considered valuable at the time they were written) and then quote it for authority. In your view, the Bible lacks merit because it was written by humans who distort. Well, your communication with God is even more human mediated. You never prove it is Christ b/c it is impossible to prove.
Feelings are not facts is an important affirmation. Science repeatedly proves feelings/beliefs are not facts.
Your assertion is insufficient for anyone else on this planet. I would love you to address the one culture (white Europeans) specifity or even the species specifictiy. Dogs may sense Christ's presence. Some of us don't want to invent Christ whole cloth.
One thing I truly don't understand. It has nothing to do with your arguments. You are consistenly one of the nicest persons on this forum. I appreciate your civility very much. Yet you claim that you alone have truth. The beliefs of others are not valid b/c you experience your belief. Well, countless schizoprehnics claim to have a relationsihp with Christ. They claim they are Christ. Perhaps I could feel the Beatles, the WHO, or Bob Dylvan are the image of God. Humans were born in God's image, according to Genesis. So you agree with Genesis. Jesus was human and made in the image of God.
You never explain why Jesus is not God or why Jesus is God. Tammy, I have feelings and experiences, too. Christ is present in my life. Admitte4dly, my Christ is harder to grasp but then I would not want a simpleton God. YHWH is immoral. His creation, despite repeated instances of Holocaust, is more moral than the Creator.
myelaine

dear Tammy...
you said: "Weeping indicates love and sadness... not anger and a call for vengeance. (that is religion; that is man)
Love and sadness is a parent or loved one weeping over children or friends who choose a path that puts them in harm."...
first of all I didn't say that the tears of Jesus are a call for anger and vengeance...it is a response to the grief He felt because their "house" was desolation NOT life...He was sent to gather their "house" to protect them from the desolation...but they didn't choose that. THAT is the gospel message...choose life not certain desolation!!!...Jesus said that those who don't believe in Him are condemned already (john 3:18)...just like jerusalem. *it should be noted that in a practical sense...those who DID believe in Jesus ALSO escaped the desolation of jerusalem.
but you suggest there is no harm in rejecting Jesus because once He is revealed from heaven there shouldn't be any resistence, all but the very evil will THEN believe in Him and be saved...but that isn't what the bible says...that is what you say.
...anyone who isn't in Christ will not be pleased to see Him...because the bible says that they await certain judgement.
Remember what the demons said?..."And suddenly they cried out, saying, “What have we to do with You, Jesus, You Son of God? Have You come here to torment us before the time?”...2 peter 2:3 speaks of the judgement coming upon false teachers among the people...2 peter 2:9...WHAT does reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgement mean to you?...WHO is going to make this judgement?
love michelle
tec

Pls. explain what you mean by the image of God. Christians believe Christ is God. Paul speaks of Christ as the center. Something which Jesus of Nazareth never explained. The only merit I see in your argument is that it is your feeling which you believe is fact. Well, it may be. The evidence is incredibly unlikely, though. All you do is state your belief, not any rationale. You cannot dismiss the Bible (which I find ridiciulous b/c it shows the beliefs and stories that were considered valuable at the time they were written) and then quote it for authority. In your view, the Bible lacks merit because it was written by humans who distort. Well, your communication with God is even more human mediated. You never prove it is Christ b/c it is impossible to prove.
I mean: Seeing Christ is seeing God.
"If you have seen me, you have seen the Father."
That does not make them the same person. Just that Christ is the perfect reflection/image of His Father. He came in His Father's likeness.
Like if you had a daughter, and she represented you perfectly. Everything she said was as you taught, and so as you would do. Everything she did was as you taught, and so as you would do.
You are not the same person. But you are one in spirit.
Feelings are not facts is an important affirmation. Science repeatedly proves feelings/beliefs are not facts.
Of course.
Your assertion is insufficient for anyone else on this planet.
True. I do not, however, expect or even desire that anyone take my word for it. But rather look for yourself. More than that, go to Christ as He invites us to do.
I would love you to address the one culture (white Europeans) specifity or even the species specifictiy. Dogs may sense Christ's presence. Some of us don't want to invent Christ whole cloth.
I am not sure what you mean here, or what you are asking.
One thing I truly don't understand. It has nothing to do with your arguments. You are consistenly one of the nicest persons on this forum. I appreciate your civility very much. Yet you claim that you alone have truth. The beliefs of others are not valid b/c you experience your belief. Well, countless schizoprehnics claim to have a relationsihp with Christ. They claim they are Christ. Perhaps I could feel the Beatles, the WHO, or Bob Dylvan are the image of God. Humans were born in God's image, according to Genesis. So you agree with Genesis. Jesus was human and made in the image of God.
Well, first, thank you... and know that i also appreciate the civil discourse between us.
Second, I do not claim that i alone have the truth... or even that i have the truth at all. No one can 'have' the truth. The Truth is Christ. We may know the truth, through knowing Him. Certainly, I am not the only person who knows him... or is known by Him. The beliefs of others are neither valid nor invalid to me. I can only keep my eye to Christ, and follow Him. I do not judge other for their belief or faith. But i will witness to Christ, and speak as to what He has taught me.
As to Genesis... Adam was made in God's image; but we came from Adam and so were made in his image. In these vessels that surround our spirit, who we truly are. But it is not the physical image that counts... it is the spiritual image. Love, mercy, etc.
(Christ was born (begotten); not made.)
You never explain why Jesus is not God or why Jesus is God.
I have no reason to think that he is God. He states that the Father is greater than Him. All authority is given to Him. Given by whom? He hands authority back to His Father. How, if they are the same person? (again, i do know the trinity doctrine, but I have no reason to believe it)
God is the Father.
Christ is the Son.
This is very simple and straightforward to me. The rest requires some mind twists, and truth is just not that complicated. So I don't really explain more, because i don't really see any reason to go beyond God being the Father, and Christ being His Son... as stated. One in spirit, certainly, so that to see Christ is to see God. But not the same being.
Tammy, I have feelings and experiences, too. Christ is present in my life. Admitte4dly, my Christ is harder to grasp but then I would not want a simpleton God. YHWH is immoral. His creation, despite repeated instances of Holocaust, is more moral than the Creator.
I do not discount your feelings or experiences. But I must go with where He leads, rather than where others lead (including traditions and doctrines that are taught by some of these others) I do not think that simple (straightforward/not comlicated) equals simpleton, though.
I assume that you do not believe that Jah (YHWY), as depicted by some of the OT or by men or by various religions, is real. I assume that you believe that God is depicted as Christ showed Him to be. The bottom line remains that we listen to Christ. To you, he is God; to me, He shows us the Truth of God.
Peace,
tammy
Pterist

Christ is the Son. ..... God is the Father.
Christ IS eternally Begotton from the Father ....SAME NATURE....SAME STUFF...BOTH are called Alpha and Omega which means the whole encompassing of time in a different eternal divine Nature. Trinity is NOT MODALISM <.same PERSONAGE>........it's an isogesis of SAME NATURE, Separate personage. Thanks Tammy for letting me vent, and for revealing that Christ is the personification of Truth, Wisdom and God.....:) Shalom.
tec

first of all I didn't say that the tears of Jesus are a call for anger and vengeance...it is a response to the grief He felt because their "house" was desolation NOT life...He was sent to gather their "house" to protect them from the desolation...butthey didn't choose that. THAT is the gospel message...choose life not certain desolation!!!...Jesus said that those who don't believe in Him are condemned already (john 3:18)...just like jerusalem. *it should be noted that in a practical sense...those who DID believe in Jesus ALSO escaped the desolation of jerusalem.
I was responding to this:
Where is the anger at those who reject His Son, the greatest gift He could give?
I responded that Christ wept over those who rejected him, to point out the contrast.
but you suggest there is no harm in rejecting Jesus because once He is revealed from heaven there shouldn't be any resistence, all but the very evil will THEN believe in Him and be saved...but that isn't what the bible says...that is what you say
I do not say this.
What I have said is that some do the things He asked, by nature, NOW... so that He knows them. So that when He returns, these are of the sheep who he invites into the kingdom.
...anyone who isn't in Christ will not be pleased to see Him...because the bible says that they await certain judgement.
The bible also says that any who give even a cup of cold water to one of the least of his brothers will not lose his reward. Look at that verse for a moment. All of his brothers already belong to Him... so one who is giving the cup of cold water and being promised his reward is not one of his brothers; because his brothers already belong to Him. As well... what the sheep did to feed the poor, the hungry, the needy, the suffering, the imprisoned... they did to Him. These are also invited into the kingdom. These are those Christ knows, regardless of whether they specifically know Him.
Remember what the demons said?..."And suddenly they cried out, saying, “What have we to do with You, Jesus, You Son of God? Have You come here to torment us before the time?”...2 peter 2:3 speaks of the judgement coming upon false teachers among the people...2 peter 2:9...WHAT does reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgement mean to you?...WHO is going to make this judgement?
I have never stated that there is no judgment. There is a judgment. Of anyone who is not written in the lamb's book of life. (these written in the book of life are not those who are his brothers, because all of his brothers -those still living and those who had died -were taken up and changed at the same time in the first resurrection.
Peace to you,
tammy
Chariklo

Tec, you are so spot on with everything you say, and you continue to say what I would want to say, but much more explicitly and clearly.
Christ is the Son......God is the Father.
Christ IS eternally Begotton from the Father ....SAME NATURE....SAME STUFF...BOTH are called Alpha and Omega which means the whole encompassing of time in a different eternal divine Nature.
Trinity is NOT MODALISM <.same PERSONAGE>........it's an isogesis of SAME NATURE, Separate personage.
Pterist, that's an excellent explanation of the Trinity. One God. Three Persons. Three Persons in One God.
Much mocked and derided by the Watchtower, who can't think beyond the purely physical, not matter how spiritual they insist they are, and so reduce to Trinity to a caricature, a three-headed God.
It is Love which holds the Three persons together in the One God. That's the inter-relationship between the Persons.

Image of God - the Bible or Christ?

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