Image of God - the Bible or Christ?

by tec 132 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  tec

  Christ is the ultimate revelation of God as Father.

  Yes.

  The written word reveals Gods character, holiness and righteousness.

  Some of it does, I agree. Some of it reflects the understanding (or misunderstanding), limitations, weakness, etc... of the people who worshipped Him.

  The creation reveals God's power and awesomeness.

  Agreed. (Although death that entered the creation through sin is an enemy. God did not create that.)

  To him who has "more" more is revealed, with accountability.

  Once again, yes.

  Obviously, "knowing" God as Father as revealed in his relationship with his eternal Begot Son IN US is the ultimate treasure in clay pots. 2 Corinthians 4:

  Thank you for that verse, and for understanding.

  Peace to you,

  tammy
• 

  tec

  Band, thank you for your last post, for the wish to build a bridge of understanding. I want to respond to your sincere questions and I do not want to rush through my response. Give me a bit of time to deal with some things here at home (bedtime for the kids and such), and I will return to continue our conversation.

  Peace to you,

  tammy
• 

  OnTheWayOut

  You did not answer my question, OTWO. But I will answer yours.

  You would have to tell me what I didn't answer, so I can either show you how I answered it or not.

  But don't bother. You are still wearing your blinders.

  I am sure that tons and tons of JW's, Mormons, Adventists, Christians of varying thoughts, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Tribes, etc. test their beliefs and those that are sure they receive communications from God/Jesus/the dead/whatever say that they test them and they pass the test. Someone who believes in reincarnation can demonstrate how they are sure it's loving to bring someone back and someone else can tell us how it is love to ignore the prayers of Indonesian children standing near a tsunami. It's all subjective.

  You never share anything in conflict with (your version of) Him because you dismiss any information and writings in conflict with (your version of) Him.

  Getting through to you is the same as proving that a teapot doesn't orbit the earth.

  I am beginning to suspect that such blinded views are not really genuine. I am beginning to realize that, just as much as another famous poster, TEC is just a character created by the person behind the keyboard. TEC is designed to provoke with closed logic circles. Good day, TEC. Let me know if Tammy ever really wants to discuss matters.
• 

  tec

  I would recommend you read a basic book on the gospels and Paul's letters. One that is in the mainstream. It need not be the work of any one demonination. In fact, it might be better if it were nondemoninational. For me, as for the vast majority of Christians, Christ is God. Christ is not the image of God. Jesus Christ is not a photocopy of God nor a photographic (not even a fine art painting). The faction of Christians that endured teach that Christ is God. god is Christ.

  I know the theology. I did read Mere Christianity. But there are many things that conflict with this as well. And I don't have any reason to believe it, other than what tradition or a vote or some scholars state. I think of this teaching as you described it earlier... as man's attempt to describe and understand something... that he does not understand ;)

  Christ made a distinction between Himself and God. I know there is another layer to the tradition and doctrine, but I have no reason to believe it. I don't want to argue about it either, though. If we are looking at Christ to see God, and so listening to Christ... then 'he who is not against you is for you'

  I would rather die than worship the God I was raised to believe existed. If YHWH is God, I don't want to worship God. My choice would be Satan. YHWH is loathsome.

  I understand. But I would probably agree that the God you were raised to worship does not exist. That people misrepresented who God is... because they were looking at things other than Christ.

  Frankly, I have no idea what you mean. I do in a mangled "feely" sense.

  This, I understand. Sometimes, I 'feel' truth when I hear it. Like recognition. I would describe that as the spirit within you recognizing truth.

  Sometimes we cannot trust just our feelings, and I understand this as well. So we also test.

  Believe it or not, I feel Jesus' presence when I see certain works of art, music, or see nature (when it is nice).

  I believe it. I also understand.

  You are polite, though, so I do want to understand. Can't you explain in simple terms that I can grasp. If not exactly, can you describe what it is like to experience. Do you feel calm? Does this God speak to you in voices? If it is not too personally revealing, can't you share how you decided Christ was revealing himself to you. What actual tests did you use?

  I will try.

  I do feel calm. Calm and quiet within. Because Christ is quiet.

  He speaks to me (to us) in different ways.

  - Sometimes I hear Him in words... within me. Not an audible voice, but distinctive. (calm, quiet, sure, patient) Spiritual, and within. A couple of examples: "Send him to me"; "Leave them to themselves"; "Love Him". Simple things in response to questions I have asked, or guidance i have sought. (I'm sorry, but I do not wish to reveal the context)

  When I do hear Him, I am calm within; perhaps because he is calm and sure. So I am calm and sure. I might allow doubts to creep in later (less and less as time goes on, and i trust and recognize Him more), but at the time I am absolutely no doubt sure.

  - Sometimes the spirit teaches through the reminder of a scripture brought to mind; or an experience; or simply shows me the truth on something by granting me understanding (opening my eyes and allowing me to see). Such as some understanding I received regarding the Adam/Eve account in Genesis. I did not come to that on my own. The Spirit was teaching me, and I KNEW that it was true because the understanding i was being given showed a God of love. One who protects and finds a way for us to come back to Him (if we want to), even when we turn away. One that is reflected in Christ.

  - Sometimes the Spirit teaches or speaks in a way that it is just a deep knowing... a truth that lives within you; like you are understanding and recognizing that truth deep to your very blood and bones. As if your blood and bones are 'singing out'

  Love underlies all of the above. If something is not of love, if there is anger or hate or darkness within it, then it is not of God. Not of Christ. I have never received anything from the Spirit that was not of love.

  I asked Christ. I asked God to send me His Son. I asked for ears to hear and eyes to see. (I did not care if I never heard or saw; I would continue to follow Christ because I love Him and I hear truth in Him and His teachings, and my faith is in Him.) I trusted God to answer, and Christ, because they promised that any who seek, will find. But it is not that Christ did not speak to me before... He speaks to us all, in and through the spirit within us... it is just that i did not recognize Him, nor put faith in anything i might be hearing from him.

  I don't really test the Spirit of Christ, per say. (though certainly, I would test what someone else claimed that he said... against Christ, his teachings, love) I think I just learned to recognize him, by the truth and the love with which he 'speaks'.

  I hope that helps a bit. Please ask for clarification on anything that seems unclear. I would not be offended.

  I find your take a bit loony but I realize my take is just as loony.

  :)

  Why would Christ favor certain people, evidently not based on merit or even grace, and not reveal himself to others?

  I think that it is us who do not recognize him, though he is here... 'standing at the door, knocking'. That kind of faith can be kind of frightening for some. As well, i think looking at other images can prevent us from recognizing him.

  Also, what do you mean by "the image of God?" When I think of an image, I think of a pictorial depiction. Some visual item. Are you saying that Christ is less than God?

  I'm not really thinking pictorial depiction/visual item. Although perhaps in a way, i guess I am. God is spirit... invisible. Christ is spirit as well, but He came as a living (he is alive) image (reflection/representation/truth) of God: who He is; what he wants; his attributes (love, mercy, justice, forgiveness, patience, etc)

  Christ is a living image... as opposed to a dead image (such as an idol made of wood, or gold, or a statue, or some such thing)

  The living God has a living image.

  Christ is one with His Father (in spirit)... but even He said that His Father is greater. Christ is Holy. God is MOST Holy.

  If I am not explaining what you believe, please help me understand. Perhaps it is my background. I am very detail oriented.

  Thank you for asking. I hope I am obliging. Detail oriented works for me :)

  You are nice but I also imagine that I am just as worthy before God- as all humans are worthy. The concept of the elect always bothered me.

  I have no more worth than you, that is for certain. Perhaps the concept of the elect bothers you (and most of us) because man has used that at times (okay, often) to lord something over his fellow man. When in reality, those who belong to Christ, are to SERVE. Not BE served.

  Do you believe in grace? I am trying very hard.

  I do. I do not fully understand it (and I will admit to not really thinking much about it, other than that it is love, mercy, life... freely given to those who would take/accept it; and God may have mercy upon whomever He chooses), but I will learn as our Lord guides/teaches me.

  Peace to you,

  tammy
• 

  cofty

  death that entered the creation through sin is an enemy. God did not create that - Tammy

  Death has been an essential part of the evolution of life for millions of years.

  Your homespun theology is incompatible with scientific facts.
• 

  cofty

  So what do parasites tell us about god's awesomeness? - Cofty

  Mr Cofty, I believe you have already revealed that you do not accept the existence of God. So you already have your answer. - Ptersist

  Yes I know why parasites have been so successful but in your view of the world as an act of creation how do you account for parasites?

  But you already knew that was what I was asking and you preferred to evade a difficult question - duly noted.
• 

  tec

  The only image of god available to all of us equally, is the bible.

  No. The bible is available to us all. But that does not make it the image of God. If a bunch of people who know you got together and wrote stuff down about you, that does not make those writings your image.

  The bible is not an all or nothing book. It is also not all scripture. As well, there are plenty of verses that we give our best approximation of what is said (using context)... but that means we have to have the context right or we can slant something one way or the other. Translating from one language to another, can still lose something of the message, even today. From thousands of years ago, how much more so? The bible is not perfect. And again, it is not an all or nothing book. People chose what to put in, what to leave out.

  But regardless of any of that... the only thing in that book that IS the image of God (stated to be so, looked upon as)... is Christ. If a person chooses to follow Christ, then HE is who they follow.

  That's where we learn about Jesus too. Jesus quoted from the scriptures, and always said, 'it is written'.

  Yes. He often quoted from the scriptures (but often saying 'you have heard it said', over it is written)... and then CORRECTING the understanding of that teaching.

  You have heard it said that you must love your neighbor and hate your enemy, but I tell you now... love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father in heaven..

  Moses gave you this law (on divorce) because your hearts were hard, but I tell you now...

  You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, do not murder... but I tell you now...

  You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, do not break your otath, but keep the oaths you have made to the lord. But I tell you, Do not swear at all... simply let your yes be your yes, and your no be your no.

  You have heard taht it was said eye for eye... but i tell you now, do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.

  (It is interesting to me that it is written that when he countered Satan, he said 'it is written.' I am going to ask and pray on that)

  He also said he did not come to do away with the law, but to fullfill it.

  Sure. But a couple of things:

  What does 'fullfill' mean (because he made the above statement, directly before he made all of those corrections that I listed above as well). And what did he mean when He said nothing would drop from it... until all was accomplished. What was 'all'? And what law was he referrring to? The law of God... or the law that was mishandled, misunderstood, misapplied, added to?

  So we learn a lot about this god by reading the law, like Jesus did.

  Yes. We learn that laws were given from some (like Moses) due to the hard-heartedness of the people. We learn that the scribes and teachers and such of the law, had mishandled it; lied about it; missed the point of it. That they did not know what 'I desire mercy; not sacrifice' means. Christ told them that if they had understood this, they would not condemn the innocent.

  You look and you see something else. But you do this by ignoring or not seeing or not understanding things such as the above.
  

  Because many have morals higher than both this god and his son, they have recreated the figures into something more palatable.

  Or they are just looking at the Son, to know/see Truth about the Father.

  Peace,

  tammy
• 

  tec

  You would have to tell me what I didn't answer, so I can either show you how I answered it or not.

  okay:

  The bible has conflicting views on God. Which to believe?

  I am sure that tons and tons of JW's, Mormons, Adventists, Christians of varying thoughts, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Tribes, etc. test their beliefs and those that are sure they receive communications from God/Jesus/the dead/whatever say that they test them and they pass the test. Someone who believes in reincarnation can demonstrate how they are sure it's loving to bring someone back and someone else can tell us how it is love to ignore the prayers of Indonesian children standing near a tsunami. It's all subjective.

  Sure, but because there are different opinions, one should not speak at all? Christ said there would be divisions.

  You never share anything in conflict with (your version of) Him because you dismiss any information and writings in conflict with (your version of) Him.

  I dismiss what is in conflict with Him, yes. Or shelve it until I understand more, because sometimes what seems to be a conflict is just our own lack of understanding.

  Getting through to you is the same as proving that a teapot doesn't orbit the earth.

  I might state the same to you, lol.

  I am beginning to suspect that such blinded views are not really genuine. I am beginning to realize that, just as much as another famous poster, TEC is just a character created by the person behind the keyboard. TEC is designed to provoke with closed logic circles. Good day, TEC. Let me know if Tammy ever really wants to discuss matters.

  You're talking with Tammy. I sign all my posts thus. Tec is my initials.

  I don't have the energy required to keep up such a persona as you are suggesting. Nor the desire. Perhaps thinking so makes it easier for you to dismiss me, but tec/tammy is me... not some persona.

  Peace,

  tammy
• 

  myelaine

  dear Tammy...

  you said: "But He doesn't change. So is it that he changed, or is it that the people had not understood Him?"...

  we are made in God's image...we have all the attitudes of God...we can be angry and loving, we can desire justice and righteousness etc....just like God. Jesus displayed all the attitudes of God, you choose to only see half of the attitudes of God.

  That is why your lord has no message except the one you choose...where is God's justice? Where is the anger at those who reject His Son, the greatest gift He could give? Where is the, "vengence is Mine", saith the LORD?

  if you were to read ALL of what the bible says about Jesus and His message and mission, you would see that God hasn't changed...except in your "understanding".

  mark 8:38

  love michelle
• 

  tec

  Christ wept for those who rejected Him, Michelle.

  Peace,

  tammy