Image of God - the Bible or Christ?

by tec 132 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  cofty

  The creation reveals God's power and awesomeness.

  So what do parasites tell us about god's awesomeness? Parasites like the ones in Africa that burrow into children's eyeballs and cause blindness for example?
• 

  tec

  So, your point is that Shelby and you have a direct line to the true Christ that no one else on the forum has.

  Nothing in this post even remotely suggests such a thing. This is something that you have determined on your own.

  It is false, in any case. Just sayin'.

  It is more provocative than the Governing Body claiming to be the exclusive channel for Christ. Indeed, you are merely restating what the Governing Body imposes on Jehovah's Witnesses. I notice that your Christ has no message. Your Christ never had flesh. He is not tied to the Jewish religion in which he was born, lived, and died. History does not matter.

  It would be quite provocative if it were even remotely true. It is not. Nor is it something that I am even remotely stating.

  I don't know where you came up with the rest of what you said about 'my Christ'.

  Christ does have a message. He did have flesh. He is tied to the nation of Israel... and he did live under the law while He walked in the flesh; though He also corrected the misapplication of that law.

  History does matter... but at some point, you need to stop looking back (such as the scriptures) and look forward. To Christ NOW.

  This is a broken record. I am sincerely happy that your beliefs make you happy. Your constant statements of mere assumptions, guesses do not make them truth for anyone besides yourself. Most people on this earth don't know anything about Jesus, except as a imperialist tool. What makes you correct and Hindus, Moslems, Buddhists, agnostics, and atheists wrong?

  My statements make nothing true. You are correct. One should always test and look for oneself, and not take the word of another person for anything, certainly not over Christ, Himself.

  Do you think that I should not witness to Christ just because others do not believe in him, or because some have never heard of Him? He said that we would be witnesses of Him.

  I affirm that I believe through will in Christ. It is my personal decision. The belief is more gut, a desire, than rational thought. Rational belief proves this Jesus is Christ myth is only a figment of my particular culture.

  I am confused as to how you can rationalize these two thoughts at the same time, but that is your business. You do not answer to me.

  I affirm the Nicene and Apostle's Creed. Do I believe in the actual text? No. I see the Creeds as a group of Christians struggling to define the unknowable. It is total nonsense that a group convened by Constantine would have true insight. Constantine had the power to impose a solution. Our present faith is merely a reflection of historical accident. The Creed was negotiated, not pure.

  I do not affirm any creeds, though I think those two state quite different things. But I do see creeds in the same way that you see them. But I do not see why I would follow something like that... something I knew was a best description at the time, but was not true.

  You are the same as the Governing Body, which is fine for you.

  You based that conclusion on false statements above.

  It is nice that you have faith.

  Okay. And you.

  I imagine it is comforting to have an instant Jesus experience and never have faith based on doubts and complexities.

  I've had doubts in the past. I have just learned through experience that the subject of those doubts are never justified. So 'unknowns' or 'complexities' do not bother me. I have learned to trust that the answer is always there, and it never convlicts with Christ and God. (the answers we make up might conflict, but the truth does not)

  Groovy Jesus. He will cure whatever ails you. The Santa Claus Christ is repulsive to me. Posting is never going to change my mind. All you do is constantly say that personal experience alone brings you Christ.

  Okay, I don't get the reason for your references here. I don't think you understand what I believe, but perhaps I have been unclear. Note that I have no need to change your mind, though. But I did learn about Christ, before I learned to go TO Christ. I learned about Him from people, from the bible, from witnesses, from his teachings. I did not have (and/or I did not recognize) the personal experiences until I stopped searching the scriptures for life, and instead did as He asks... by coming to Him. Seeking, knocking, asking for the Spirit, putting faith in Christ and God. A living Christ and God, not just one determined by religion or a book. But true and alive and here.

  Christ would never exclude so many humans. According to you, He died for a handful of groovy Jesus people.

  I have never said (and do not believe) that He excludes people. Nor is what you said... according to me. Not at all.

  More importantly, I see the church as a community of people asking the same questions as a community. You would eliminate any community.

  I would not eliminate community. But I would witness to Christ, and I would speak against any who set themselves up in the seat of Christ. By saying that people must come to them, follow them, who teach false about Christ, and bring reproach upon Him and His Father.

  I can't get to the rest of what you said for a bit. I hope you do not mind me going point for point, but you said a lot, and I found it easier to address in this way.

  Peace to you,

  tammy
• 

  Pterist

  **** So what do parasites tell us about god's awesomeness? ****

  Mr Cofty, I believe you have already revealed that you do not accept the existence of God. So you already have your answer.

  Shalom
• 

  Band on the Run

  Tammy,

  I would recommend you read a basic book on the gospels and Paul's letters. One that is in the mainstream. It need not be the work of any one demonination. In fact, it might be better if it were nondemoninational. For me, as for the vast majority of Christians, Christ is God. Christ is not the image of God. Jesus Christ is not a photocopy of God nor a photographic (not even a fine art painting). The faction of Christians that endured teach that Christ is God. god is Christ.

  I would rather die than worship the God I was raised to believe existed. If YHWH is God, I don't want to worship God. My choice would be Satan. YHWH is loathsome.

  Frankly, I have no idea what you mean. I do in a mangled "feely" sense. Believe it or not, I feel Jesus' presence when I see certain works of art, music, or see nature (when it is nice). You are polite, though, so I do want to understand. Can't you explain in simple terms that I can grasp. If not exactly, can you describe what it is like to experience. Do you feel calm? Does this God speak to you in voices? If it is not too personally revealing, can't you share how you decided Christ was revealing himself to you. What actual tests did you use?

  I find your take a bit loony but I realize my take is just as loony.

  Why would Christ favor certain people, evidently not based on merit or even grace, and not reveal himself to others? Also, what do you mean by "the image of God?" When I think of an image, I think of a pictorial depiction. Some visual item. Are you saying that Christ is less than God?

  If I am not explaining what you believe, please help me understand. Perhaps it is my background. I am very detail oriented.

  You are nice but I also imagine that I am just as worthy before God- as all humans are worthy. The concept of the elect always bothered me.

  Do you believe in grace? I am trying very hard.

  This topic interests me. I am no longer a newcomer on this forum. Perhaps you do not want to share details but your explanation is very vague, as is your statement of belief.
• 

  still thinking

  Re: Image of God - the Bible or Christ?

  Let me see....now what does the bible say about that?
• 

  tec

  I studied the gospels and Paul's writings both in personal and academic settings. My belief is the mainstream of Christianity. I excell academically b/c I memorize details well. I would go further with some more creativity. Everything I have written is available through commercial, not solely Christian, popular books and journal articles. It would be a shame to go through college and then ignore what I learned. The lasting importance of college for me was not learning particular knowledge but critical thinking.

  Good then. Do as you choose. As i will.

  I follow Christ, and listen to him... and only Him. I do not care about mainstream, tradition, academic study of the gospels, etc. I don't have a problem with anyone who does. But I will just look to Christ, in the hopes, for me, of not muddying up the clear waters.

  Tec can believe any weird junk. I claim an equal right to state that I am in the mainstream. She is outside (where I do believe she is very comfortable and relishes it). This is a very old and now trite conversation.

  No one ever said you couldn't state that you are in the mainstream. But you are right that I am comfortable being outside mainstream christianity. I am comfortable being anywhere at all, as long as I am looking to and following Christ, and he is guiding me. No matter where that leads.

  Any person with my education and background would come forth with the same conclusions. I know for a fact that what I wrote is taught at General Theological Seminary and Union Theological Seminary in NYC. Union is world famous. Priests discuss what i wrote with me. It is possible to have an individual view, informed my academics, and still believe in Christ. I do believe traditions are important and so did Jesus. Over and over again, he engaged in Jewish worship. Jesus was very Jewish. The historical Jesus, the flesh and blood, is essential to the story. Tec believes in Gnosticism in many respects.

  Once again, good for you then. (I do not mean that with any sarcasm)

  I don't care about such things. I care only to follow Christ. Those things, seminaries and such and priests and academics... these things do not possess life, and might not even be true. Christ, however, is both Truth and Life. One needs only Him. That doesn't mean you can't go ahead and do all of these academic pursuits and accomlishments as you have.

  But it is not necessary. Those who followed Him were not all educated men. They were, however, men and women of faith. I see no need to complicate that.

  I looked at gnosticism because others suggested that about me as well. Some things I agreed with, some things not. Same as with most any other 'system' of belief. So I don't worry about what others believe. I worry about what I should be doing, and what Christ asks of me.

  I am not stating she is wrong in her view. She goes off base when she insists that anyone else believes her view. I don't expect people to agree with me -- unless I am in a sophisticated setting. Christology is not my main area of expertise. In fact, it is far beyond my niche. Contrary in many respects to my professional training.

  It seems you are stating that I am wrong in my view, but okay.

  Please understand that I do not insist that anyone believe my view. I witness to Christ. I don't expect anyone to agree with ME... who am I? I am not educated. I have not done all of these academic pursuits as you. I am no one special. If anyone wants to know Christ, they do not need me to know Him. They do not need academics and such either. They need only faith... and Christ.

  One of the significant moments of my life was my female prof explaining that God has many sons. Being a son of God is no unique title. The Son of Man tradition is what counts. Yet, despite every king of Israel and prophets being a son of God, nowhere is there any mention or hint of a daughter of God. Band to God (especially JAH, YHWH)-go f...... yourself. There are other Gods. Jesus treated women with great respect. I see little continuity between Genesis and later Judaism. I totally reject YHWH as a matter of will. Christ is worthy of my worship ( or at least the faith tradition where I am now).

  Well, since God is as Christ showed Him to be, then God holds women in the same regard as Christ holds women. Even Paul stated that there is no male/female, slave/free, to God... all are equal.

  So i don't reject the Father of Christ. Instead I reject false teachings or misunderstandings of God. But for God, himself... I look at His image: Christ.

  I completely understand that you enjoy your experience of Christ. My question is it truly Christ? What details convince you it is Christ? You say to test it. What are the requirements for testing? I honestly would love to hear more details than vague statements.

  Because He has never taught me anything that is not truth. He has never lied to me; never led me wrong. Because all that He ever taught and continues to teach is based in love, in forgiveness, in mercy, in truth. I would suggest that those are good things to test by.

  Peace to you,

  tammy
• 

  NewChapter

  The only image of god available to all of us equally, is the bible. That's where we learn about Jesus too. Jesus quoted from the scriptures, and always said, 'it is written'. He also said he did not come to do away with the law, but to fullfill it. So we learn a lot about this god by reading the law, like Jesus did. That god was bi-polar. Murderous executioner one day, loving helper the next day. Jesus was in total agreement of his father. On earth, he seemed to be a reflection of his father's nice and cuddly side. In Revelation, he reveals himself as his father's other side.

  Jesus is just like his father. Both loving and murderous. It's all in the bible. And that is all we have on which to base any belief in this god.

  The image of both God and Christ is found in the bible.

  Because many have morals higher than both this god and his son, they have recreated the figures into something more palatable. That's a good thing, but we shouldn't pretend it didn't all start with the bible.
• 

  tec

  The bible has conflicting views on God. Which to believe? - tec

  Tammy, Christ is not giving the same answers to all that he calls to. He gives conflicting message. If you want to say the flaw is with the humans, why do you know you are not one receiving the wrong message as opposed to some other persons? OTWO

  And Christ didn't interfere when many people joined dangerous mind-control cults like the JW's. You can say all day that this is not his fault or that he called and they didn't listen. But others are free to say that means he is not guiding many of the most sincere believers desirous of serving properly. OTWO

  You did not answer my question, OTWO. But I will answer yours.

  To the first question: I trust Christ. I test what I hear. How would you know about the message? By testing it, and looking to Christ yourself. If something I share is in conflict with Him, then by all means, challenge that. Perhaps I have understood incorrectly.

  The seond is not a question, but I will attempt to respond: People did what they choose to do. Free will. One should test everything, including churches and people who knock at our doors, or people we 'speak to' over the internet. He also calls many people OUT of these 'blind guides'. God said listen to my son. He did not say, listen to these men, or this religion, or that religion. But we have blind people, and blind guides. That does not mean that these are not sincere. Christ can set them free. But they need to want to turn to Him and BE free. Not all people want that. Too much freedom is fearful for some.

  Tammy, I was giving the benefit of the doubt. Actually, the God of the Bible has not changed. He continues to be a killer, approving of genocide and rape. The Bible doesn't represent this Jesus you have imagined, and Jesus doesn't represent or present an image of

  God.

  See, I don't believe in the god of the bible.

  I believe in God, the Father of Christ. He is who i worship. Christ is how i see Him.

  You see the 'hypothetical' god through the bible. That is how you come to your conclusions. Because that is where you are looking. But for what reason do you do this? What reason do you have to think that God is shown through the 'bible', over shown through the one that even that book states to be the Image of God?

  "You diligently study the scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life.These are the scriptures that testify about me; yet you refuse to come to me to have life." tec

  You deny Christ turned to the scriptures for authority then cite an example of how Christ did just so. OTWO

  The scriptures were a pointing finger. I do not deny that. They are the finger... the witness... pointing to Christ. But Christ is the authority. The One to whom we must turn, look, follow, listen, hear.

  The witness to Christ... is not Christ.

  That verse above is clear that life is not in the scriptures... they can merely point the way TO the life: Christ.

  Peace,

  tammy
• 

  tec

  Terry, I am going to mull over your post some more. But good food for thought.

  Peace to you,

  tammy
• 

  tec

  Kind of ironic to quote scriptures to make your point about not following what they say...lol

  I did not use that verse to make a point about not following what they say. Indeed, if one followed what they said... one would go to Christ. If one recognized Him, that is.

  Peace,

  tammy