Analysis of anti-607 BCE Rebuttals

by Ethos 529 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Londo111
    Londo111

    If the problem is Biblical interpretation, which can often be a murky area fought with dispute, maybe it is time to move onto the realm of the astronomical observations. There is little room for interpretation in hard numbers. Otherwise, we are talking in circles.

    For instance, I’ve yet to see how Cyrus was called into account for his iniquity, where as the last king of the Neo-Babylonian kingdom was, or how utensils from many chapters later were involved. Therefore, I can't see how Jeremiah 25:12 points to anything but 539 BC as the end of the 70 years. Nor do I see any other date for the first returnees, but Tishri 538 BC from reading Ezra 1 to 3.

    However, the astronomical diaries help us find the absolute dates by tying events in history to a cluster of observations that sometimes occur only once every few thousand years. That is how we derive 539 BC as an absolute date. Without it, we could not fix any date in the Bible or history. The same methods can help us derive the dates of Nebuchadnezzar’s reign and from that we can derive when Jerusalem was destroyed.

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro
    EDIT: Jeffro: the Jews were no longer servants when Nabonidus died

    Bible: they came to be servants to him and his sons (throne descendants as Jeffro admitted) UNTIL Cyrus began to reign (which he admits is 538 BCE

    Why do you insist on lying about what other people actually said??

    I said the Jews were no longer servants of the Babylonians when there was no longer a Chaldean king.

    I quite clearly stated that "him and his sons" referred to Chaldean kings. I did not 'admit' that it referred to any invader who happened to take the throne. There is no precedent for claiming that "him [Nebuchadnezzar] and his sons" included the Persian Cyrus.

    The verse does not say 'the first year of Cyrus'. My undisputed 'admission' about Cyrus' first regnal year is a strawman.

    In 539BCE, the Chaldean line of kings was ended. It was then when "the royalty of Persia began to reign" (not his first regnal year, but his accession period), and since there was no longer a Chaldean king, the Jews were no longer servants (abad) "to him [Nebuchadnezzar and his 'sons']", though they were still in exile (galah) from their homeland.

    Then in 538, in Cyrus' first regnal year he made a decree for the Jews to return from exile (galah). (However, many Jews remained in Babylon, further weakening the case that the 70 years related to the exile.)

    After the Persians conquered Babylon, the Jews were servants (abad) of the Persian empire before and after they returned from exile (galah).

  • Finkelstein
    Finkelstein

    Throughout this entire thread its pretty clear to see that Ethos doesn't want or desire to be analytically truthful concerning the dating of 607,

    he's staid in the disingenuous course of appealing corruption of the Watchtower Kingdom, where power might be to his availability.

    Its futilely pointless to discuss or talk to a brick wall.

    Carry on folks !

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    Yes, but does the wall know he is a brick?

    It gets me wondering what the worldview must be like for someone with limited horizons. He may mistake, for instance, elegant language for elegant thought.

  • Londo111
    Londo111

    There have been too many ad hominem attacks on both sides. Ethos, certainly has, but so have others arguing against 607. Objectivity is often lost by concentrating on the person, instead of the issue. Then it becomes tit for tat. I feel it’s important not to use names or handles in order to attribute motivations. None of us can read hearts or minds, sometimes not even our own. None of us can see on the other side of the computer screen.

  • never a jw
    never a jw

    Ethos,

    The VAT 4956 is not a red herring, it's an attempt to spare you futile debate regarding a subject that was resolved decades ago. The table that I posted is a cut and paste from an excel sheet that I created inputing data one cell at a time. If you find it hard to believe, just tell me where you live and choose any date in the near future or distant past and I will tell you the times for the moonset, moonrise, sunset and sunrise. Once I learn how to give coordinates in the sky, I could give you the position of any planet.

    If you are as I am, seeing-is-believing type of guy, try getting the software (The SkyX First Light Edition) without the telescope. The program alone must be a lot cheaper than $200.00. It's very user friendly. Even an 8 year old can learn to use it with very little training

  • Ethos
    Ethos

    No ad hominem attacks from me. Showing someone to be a regurgitator of other peoples arguments who pass them off as their own is not ad hominem. Outlaw wasnt even involved in the discussion, that was nothing more than humorous dialogue. Please show me where I exhibited ad hominem attacks.

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro

    Previously, Ethos claimed:

    Just saw an old 538BC thread by AlanF. Jeffro shamelessly copied and pasted it word for word. Just how his interpretations happen to be word for word out of Carl Jonnson's. book.

    He now also claims:

    Showing someone to be a regurgitator of other peoples arguments who pass them off as their own is not ad hominem.

    I have repeatedly asked him to provide evidence of his libellous claim that I have plagiarised either AlanF or Jonsson.

  • Black Sheep
    Black Sheep
    Please show me where I exhibited ad hominem attacks

    http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/bible/118291/3/Fact-Jews-Returned-In-538-BC-Kills-Off-Watchtower-Chronology

    and ...... there is no attempt to refute anything in the OP. If you really want to impress us, take up the challenge in the OP and present us with a tabulated form that clearly demonstrates the mistake/s.

    If you are as I am, seeing-is-believing type of guy, try getting the software

    Stellarium works well and is free.

  • never a jw
    never a jw

    Black Sheep,

    I downloaded stellarium and is cool. It seems to be better in some regards. However, for the specific purpose of finding the data for the lunar threes the Sky X seems to be child's play in comparison. Once you find the city you want to use as observation point, gettting the specific time for sunset, or sunrise, or moonset, or moonrise for any given date can be done literally in few seconds. In stellarium I still haven't figured out how to enter a BCE date, much less get any times for sunset, sunrises, etc.

    Ethos,

    Speaking of regurgitators of information, the quintessential example of regurgitation is heard and seen in kingdom halls all over the world every Saturday and Sunday. Wouldn't you agree? Aren't you part of that group of people who raises his/her hand only to repeat what the governing body expects you to repeat? Try thinking by yourself and deviate a little from the text; soon you will find yourself in a J.C.

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