by AGuest 452 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
I must say, the idea that for a believer there is no stumbling block for a believer, but for a non-believer the stumbling block is Jesus.
First, the analogy falls flat, stumbles, you could say, because to be stumbled I have to be moving. I am not moving towards Jesus, trying to, nor do I want do. How do I stumble when I am not moving? That idea, that Jesus is the stumbling block to find Jesus, especially for people that aren't looking for Jesus, is ludicrous.
Ah ok Char - I've heard of backsliding in the pentacostal world.
EP, please can you remind us where you have that reference, that Jesus is the stumbling block for finding Jesus? I know what you're talking about but I can't remember where it is, and the way you've said it isn't exactly how I remember it.
Thanks.
Qcmbr, yes, those kids were using the term backsliding too in their taunts. Is backsliding a JW term as well? I didn't hear it when I was in the KH. My experience was limited to about two years' intensive exposure, really.
the analogy falls flat, stumbles, you could say, because to be stumbled I have to be moving.
Well, I didn't catch that we were discussing you, EP, but even so... you're not entirely correct: you could be standing still and have something come [rapidly] toward you. You weren't paying attention, though... until right when it was upon you. You start to move/step/jump out of the way... but not fast or soon enough. And so, too late: you stumble.
I am not moving towards Jesus, trying to, nor do I want do.
Oh, so this IS about you. Okay. You assume, though, that he is not moving toward you. Bad assumption on your part. Please see comment above.
How do I stumble when I am not moving?
See above.
That idea, that Jesus is the stumbling block to find Jesus, especially for people that aren't looking for Jesus, is ludicrous.
Not sure where you got the first part... or even what you mean... but, well, assuming you mean the Holy One of Israel, JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH (MischaJah)... he certainly was a stumbling block to those Jews who weren't looking for him but intead for some other. As he is to those folks today who aren't looking for him (but perhaps for "Jesus" - we can see how that's working out for such ones, though).
But I really should clarify: he is a stumbling block to the "Jews" which here, for all intents and purposes, is Israel - all tribes. To the [non-Israelite] nations, he is "foolishness." Just because is he foolishness to one, however, doesn't make them of the nations... versus of Israel. Israel has always allowed the nations to have great influence over them, even to their (Israel's) own detriment (Numbers 11:4-6). The thing is, that while not all who say they are Israel are Israel... not all who think they are not Israel... are right about that, either. WE might not know where Abraham's blood is... even if, perhaps, it's in us. But the MOST Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies, certainly does.
Remember, the blood speaks.
A slave of Christ,
SA
EP, please can you remind us where you have that reference, that Jesus is the stumbling block for finding Jesus?
Aguest said it on the previous page.
Well, I didn't catch that we were discussing you, EP
You specifically mentioned my name in the opening sentence of that explanation. No idea why.
you're not entirely correct: you could be standing still and have something come [rapidly] toward you. You weren't paying attention, though... until right when it was upon you. You start to move/step/jump out of the way... but not fast or soon enough. And so, too late: you stumble.
That's not stumbling, that's getting hit with a moving object.
You specifically mentioned my name in the opening sentence of that explanation. No idea why.
Because I was responding to your comment as to stumbling for believers? I did not get that we were discussing YOUR stumbling, specifically, since my understanding is that you're not a believer. My apologies if I'm wrong in that.
That's not stumbling, that's getting hit with a moving object.
If you're standing still and the object hits you, yes. If you try to get out of its way... and trip (over it... or perhaps over your own feet)/almost fall doing so... that is stumbling:
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So... there. ' (LOLOL - j/k). A slave of Christ, SA
Guest, on the previous page you wrote
"he can and will guide any who wish through the darkness so that they do NOT stumble."
I like that thought. This is along the lines that my wife and I have been thinking. We've also noticed that the JW's have got into the habit of using the word stumble in a way completely different from normal English.
Because I was responding to your comment as to stumbling for believers? I did not get that we were discussing YOUR stumbling, specifically, since my understanding is that you're not a believer. My apologies if I'm wrong in that.
We weren't, but you wrote this to me... "He is the stone over which many... many... perhaps including yourself... stumble". You made it a topic of discussion.
If you're standing still and the object hits you, yes. If you try to get out of its way... and trip (over it... or perhaps over your own feet)/almost fall doing so... that is stumbling:
So you will change what you say until it means whatever you want? Initially it was getting hit by the object, now it's tripping over it? Still doesn't jive, getting hit by a Jesus moving at high speeds towards you when you aren't moving isn't stumbling. You're just saying whatever sounds like it might be in any way plausible to make you sounds right.
So....yeah, still here.
The WTBTS uses a LOT of words completely different from "normal" English, dear Benj (peace to you and your household!). That is one of their tricks... and why they discourage education - so's they can put their own thoughts in folks' heads. I used to marvel (and when I say marvel, if you knew/met me you would know that I cannot always control my facial expressions... and I can be VERY expressive facially... and so my jaw would literally DROP)... at some of things said, by elders, from the platform, at conventions/assemblies... all the way down to regular publishers. At the time, I only had a few years of JC but I KNEW some of the words didn't mean what they were telling us... or vice versa (did mean something they said it didn't). One of the reasons I literally RAN to university (something I would recommend to EVERYONE, if they can find a way to do it!) when I shook them off.
Their lack of understanding of words... their meaning and etymology... always blew my mind. I often find it here, too, and that makes me marvel as well (although not as much). I don't understand why folks don't want to understand what the words truly MEAN: how can you understand what someone is saying... if you don't understand what their words mean??
And that is NOT necessarily limited to the English, because English language Bibles come from other languages. And so, it can be imperative to understand SOME words in Latin, Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic, etc., as well. No, one doesn't need to understand EVERY word in non-English languages, but I'll tell you, I cannot recount for you how many times I've read a verse... in whatever [English language] Bible version... that appears to make the writer be saying one thing... when he was saying something else entirely. The "pen" of the scribes is responsible for a lot of that, yes, but if we KNOW we've previously been misled by mistranslations, mistransliterations, and just plain ol' wrong words... what stops US from looking them up?
I will tell you what: the very thing that the WTBTS puts IT's faith and trust in, that ALLOWS them to hold sway over its members: our laziness when it comes to reading and reading comprehension. They are COUNTING on it. That's why their publications have questions at the bottom: so that can tell YOU what the paragraph says... because they know you won't REALLY read it! As a result, they are a HAVEN for those who don't want to read... and they know it. Being told, in essence, that they CAN'T pursue higher education is ACCEPTABLE to those people... because they don't WANT to ANYWAY. And so the WTBTS' doctrines on this only validate the individual's desires. Like the celebrating holidays issue did for me - doing so wasn't necessarily a "happy" time in my life growing up and so when I joined up with a group that said I didn't HAVE to... indeed, SHOULDN'T... well... HALLELUJAH!... 'cause I didn't WANT to do it, anyway.
Same with reading, understanding what one is reading, education, etc. If one doesn't really WANT to do those things, the WTBTS' teachings and policies make it easy NOT to. And easy to mislead people... right into darkness.
If one KNOWS that they are a false prophet, a harlot constructed of false christs, however... and that one should throw out EVERYTHING they teach... and start over... then clinging to ANYTHING they teach... makes NO sense. Sure, one might find that there are a few things that are accurate, but you can't put new wine into an old wineskin - you need an entirely NEW wineskin. But, yeah, your new wineskin might, say, have a cork made of the same material as theirs. But it's JUST the cork... not the entire wineskin... and certainly not from the same "tree".
Sorry, dear Benj... this topic brings out some of my passion. Reading is FUNDAMENTAL... except perhaps among Jehovah's Witnesses. For them, it's almost anathema. Anything past 8th grade level is treated with derison, and anyone with any level of real reading comprehension considered a know-it-all, arrogant, or to be viewed with a level of suspicion. That is SO stupid to me.
Eventually, I came to hate having men who didn't know what some of the most common words in the English language meant tell me what "the Bible says." They would go on with some long, dumb-butt explanation... and I would be screaming "Oh, STOP it!" inside.
Ennywho...
Thank you for letting me get that out, dear Benj... and, again, peace to you and your household!
YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,
SA
Wow. That's a pretty harsh criticism of JW's. Not my experience at all. Misled? Yes. But plenty that I knew went to college and some were quite bright and loved to read. Acting like anything above an 8th grade education is held in contempt is not accurate either. There is plenty wrong with the WT, but misrepresenting or blowing out of proportion what they stand for, just because you disrespect their beliefs, is a bit uncalled for.
