Faith... and Trust: The Same Things?

by AGuest 452 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  PSacramento

  Revelation was typical Jewish apocolyptic writing, like the revelation of Daniel, Enoch and others.

  Number shoudln't be viewed as literal since they rarely were.

  Incredibly symbolic writings should be taken as such and not used to play a "number game" that we are warned over and over again in the bible ( even by Christ) to NOT do.

  There have always been things that are stumbling blocks to believers and there always will be.

  The raise of atheisim in some parts, the rise of religion in others, this is just a cycle of things and how they always have been and will be to the end of days.

  In the past believers had to content with "other Gods" and now we contend with the notion of NO Gods or science replacing God.

  That's fine, no beleiver should ever fear having their faith and hope tested, it shoud makes us stronger.

  We must be able and willing to give testament to our beliefs, not because we can convince others but because in doing so, we are giving glory to God and Christ.
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  sabastious

  PSac, Revelation is a number game (7 heads, 10 horns, 7 stars, 7 churches, 42 months, 1260 days etc). Actually it's a game of symbols and numbers have historically always been rich in symbology.

  -Sab
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  sabastious

  We must be able and willing to give testament to our beliefs, not because we can convince others but because in doing so, we are giving glory to God and Christ.

  The only reason why we give testament is because they are useful for others. No you don't want to go around convincing people, but you do want your testimony to be convincing, or else it won't have much use for others.

  -Sab
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  PSacramento

  PSac, Revelation is a number game (7 heads, 10 horns, 7 stars, 7 churches, 42 months, 1260 days etc). Actually it's a game of symbols and numbers have historically always been rich in symbology.

  All apocalyptic literature is, the genre is all about symbolisim.

  The trick is to NOT focus on the number in expense of the message.
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  AGuest

  Number shoudln't be viewed as literal since they rarely were.

  Rarely, yes, but sometimes they were/are... and some in the revelation are, dear P (the greatest of love and peace to you and your household... and to you and yours, too, dear Sab!). The problem with the revelation is the ususal "baby with the bathwater" thing - considering ALL numbers as symbolic as well as consider them ALL literal. Because we, humans, don't know which are/aren't... it really is folly on our part to keep trying to figure out and/or opine as to which applies to which - WE... will get it wrong!

  There is One, though, who knows... from whom WE can know... because he is the One who gave it to Michael (whose voice is like a trumpet AND who is my Lord's "guardian [ark]angel" - the OTHER cherub that was "covering", of the two on the Propitiatory)... who gave it to John. John wrote what he saw as best he could write it. What he saw was multi-multi-dimensional (as if look though a clear cube and perceiving all six sides at once... only this vision was far, far, more multi-faceted than a cube... than a diamond, actually)... but he was able to see many "sides" of it at once. Because writing is linear, however... strung along like, well, pearls... what we get seems not only chronological but often symbolic. And some of it is... and some of it isn't. I have seen a great deal of it, which is how I came to understand what John saw, which I had to do in order to better understand it.

  Rather than lean upon our own understanding as to what IS literal and what is symbolic... whether numbers, or beasts, or mountains, or women... or stars, or lampstands, or congregations... or thrones, or scrolls, or bowls, or trumpets... or seas, or seeds, or scrolls... all of which are depicted there, and much, much more... we should simply go to that One. I mean, if he had the authority to give it an angel... and then grant that one to give it to John... and he gave the introduction as to whom John was to share it with... he of all people would know what it ALL means. Right?

  All we need do is ASK. Without doubting, of course, but also with a heart that WANTS to know. NOT just so we can say, "Oooh, looky me, I KNOW what it says/means!" but so that we can use it to fulfill it's PURPOSE: helping to build the "temple", which is also depicted in it... by building up the Body (of Christ). That is the purpose of ALL of the gifts of the Spirit - prophesy, as well as revelation, which this accounts includes.

  Keep seeking, then, and asking, and knocking... and it WILL be opened to you. The Door (that is Christ - John 10:9)... so as to "enter" and see these things for oneself... as well as the understanding of what John heard... and saw... as set out in these "scriptures" - (Luke 24:27, 32, 45; Revelation 3:17)

  I hope this helps and, again, peace to you, both!

  YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,

  SA
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  sabastious

  The trick is to NOT focus on the number in expense of the message.

  I am not focusing on a number, I am not sure what you are getting at. Revelation 11 clearly shows a mathmatical pattern dealing with the partitioning of a 7 year whole. They slice the 7 years into two: 42 months and 1260 days. This is a perfect example of Biblical numerology. To ignore the clear numerology in the Bible would be to abandon it's purpose.

  -Sab
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  sabastious

  Rarely, yes, but sometimes they were/are... and some in the revelation are, dear P (the greatest of love and peace to you and your household... and to you and yours, too, dear Sab!). The problem with the revelation is the ususal "baby with the bathwater" thing - considering ALL numbers as symbolic as well as consider them ALL literal. Because we, humans, don't know which are/aren't... it really is folly on our part to keep trying to figure out and/or opine as to which applies to which - WE... will get it wrong!

  I consider Revelation to be 100% figurative, including all instances of numbers. The 7 years depicted in Revelation 11 is highly figurative. It denotes a completeness, a full circuit or revolution. During this unknown span of time it's still shown through the numbers of Revelation 11 that the gentiles trampling and the two witnesses prophesying are given an EQUAL duration in which to do their thing. Since God is just, this would make perfect sense as he gives both opposing ideologies, Good and Evil, equal opportunity. Otherwise each side would have a legitimate grievance with God.

  -Sab
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  PSacramento

  I am not focusing on a number, I am not sure what you are getting at. Revelation 11 clearly shows a mathmatical pattern dealing with the partitioning of a 7 year whole. They slice the 7 years into two: 42 months and 1260 days. This is a perfect example of Biblical numerology. To ignore the clear numerology in the Bible would be to abandon it's purpose.

  Never been a big fan of numerology.

  Number tend to say what people want them to say.

  Revelation 11 says many things:

  The two witnesses full of power prophesing but eventually being killed only to be resurrected again inplain sight of all to see, eathquakes killing 1000s of people, the 7th angel's trumpet, the ark being seen in heaven, etc.

  Is there a reason you focused on numbers?
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  Band on the Run

  In an academic college class with Elaine Pagels, who has recently written an entire book on Revelation, the numbers and symbols were common knowledge to most in the first century. If the John of Patmos wrote clearly and forthrightly, the Romans would have tortured and executed him. They would not stop with John. Most of the numerology reveals from historical finds that the writings relate not to the future or the present, as the WT teaches, but to first century persecution. Roman Emperors are known by numbers. The Romans turned their heads with numbers but would act brutally to an actual number,

  The people reading John's Revelation would understand the symbols or numbers from everyday life. They needed no instruction manual.

  I could supply examples but many here have no respect for academia. In my case, knowing what scholarship provides has only deeped my faith. There is no clear line of Faith/Science. They can complement each other. True, one does not need a cult leader if one picks and chooses.

  Every church I've attended postWitnesses sees no problem with combining science and faith.

  Revelation used to bring me terror. I despised the book. After reading some academic studies, i now find it a book with great beauty. It has been greatly misused.
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  PSacramento

  Well said BOTR.

  We always need to remember that the bible books and letters may have been written FOR Us (believers) but they were NOT written TO Us.