Faith... and Trust: The Same Things?

by AGuest 452 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Qcmbr
    Qcmbr

    one extra thing and hopefully im off your case.

    im not afraid of you as a person,im afraid of belief, thecertainty it engenders blinds people into abusive relationships even when they truly feel they are doing good. At the etreme end it allows devout men to flyaeroplanes into buildings at the subtle end it sends a young man filled with love in his heart to teach with suposed authority cult teachings and convert people to mormonism. yes i absolutely fearbelief.

  • Phizzy
    Phizzy

    Now now Cofty, don't resort to the Ad Hominem method, you undo all your good work above if you attack Shelby personally, I know you only did it out of frustration, but you should be used to that feeling after the other threads with believers and non-theists battling it out !

    I do see this as a matter of how we use the words, and sometimes we will interchange "Trust" and "Faith", we are all sloppy with our use of language on occasion, apart from dear Compound Complex, the man never puts a foot wrong, or even a comma or semi-colon.

    I see "trust" as based on solid testable facts that stand all scrutiny, (unless your trust is misplaced), I see "faith" as similar to trust, but there are no facts to scrutinise.

    Faith is accepting something as true, based upon nothing tangible, apart form the intrnal experience of the individual with such faith.

    There is nothing we who are without faith can examine to test the truthfulness of their claims, hence our frustration that we are urged to "believe".

    Why should we.

    (Love and peace to you dear Shelby)

    EDITED TO ADD, Sorry folks, it is early on Saturday morning here, and I was on the beer last night, I replied to Cofty's little jibe at Shelby on page one, and didn't notice there were three more pages, what a dumb clutz I am !

  • NewChapter
    NewChapter

    you do have followers who are testifying on your behalf and are beginning to adopt your speech patterns, idioms, internal language, worship behaviour and are starting to experience co visions with you.

    Q, this is something that I have noticed for a while, and yes, it bothers me. Sure when we spend time with people, we pick things up, but this isn't like that. They aren't picking up each other's patterns and behavior, but only Aguest's. It's startling at times. I have a very difficult time understanding what Aguest posts, because her writing style is not always conducive to communication, and that's fine. That's her style. But now I'm having a hard time understanding what some of her friends are posting, as they are posting like her. I also see the change in worship behavior. They are not reflecting each other, but they are reflecting Aguest.

    Now I know the above will likely be taken as offensive, and perhaps there is no way around that, but it is an honest observation, with an honest concern. I remember when my speech patterns changed as I studied with JW's. It did work to separate me from others, but made my JW group ever more cohesive. And it didn't only happen in matters of faith, same as here, but in other things as well.

    I just told this story, and I will tell it again. After I was baptized for a couple of years, my uncle's daughter got sick. I called and asked if they would like me to prepare them some meals. Now that is not me at all. Had my identity not been over taken by the group identity, I would have just said, "Hey, you want me to bring you something to eat?" And even as I phrased it as I did, I recognized it. But it made me feel good, because it made me feel more a part of the JW's. That's how they always worded it when a member was sick and we took them food.

    It's just something I have been picking up on a lot, and I'm afraid it may start a shit storm, but it is still something to think about. Another thing to think about, Aguest's language habits never change, but it is the language of those around her that changes.

  • cofty
    cofty

    wow are you guys still up?

    I have to go out, I will see you all this evening - thats UK this evening.

    By the way no apologies for my comment on page 1 - I meant it in the context that I have explained.

  • THE GLADIATOR
    THE GLADIATOR

    For what it’s worth, here is my take on this thread that started off as an interesting discussion about faith. Cofty asked some relevant and sensible questions. Lozhasleft objected to the comment by Cofty about ‘ Shelby being the humble slave and servant whose feet are washed by Seraphs.’ From then on the discussion in hand left home.

    Qcmbr then expressed his concern about AGuest’s influence over other people on the board in his usual eloquent way. This is something that used to concern me. In fact couple of years ago I voiced my concerns with regard to Tec which led to debate with AGuest and Tec both on and off the board. The upside of this is that I got to know them better and my concern has gone.

    I have even pointed out that AGuest’s extravagant posting style could be counterproductive. Whether atheist or believer we all influence other people but in the end, as adults we make their own mind up. People do pick up other peoples way of talking. It’s normal to copy people we admire. I have been influenced more by Cofty and Qcmbr in terms of my world view and beliefs. However my conversations with Christians and their kindness and acceptance of me despite my lack of faith and challenging them, sometimes harshly, has influenced me to want to be a better person.

    Their input helps to keep the board balanced like two opposing weights. Without opposing views many of the most outstanding and informative debates would not get off the ground. My defence of Christian’s right to share their beliefs, however bizarre they may seem, has often lost me brownie points among the atheist contingency. Nevertheless I firmly maintain that there is room on the forum for a sharing of all views.

    People pour out their pet beliefs and theories and over long periods of time and give people an opportunity to settle on a view that works for them. They are free to adjust their views at any time. Everyone’s contribution to the board is of value. I read far more than I post now as I have nothing profound to share that has not already been said. My personal belief is that a person is defined not by their beliefs but by their actions and compassion towards others.

  • sabastious
    sabastious
    Q, this is something that I have noticed for a while, and yes, it bothers me. Sure when we spend time with people, we pick things up, but this isn't like that. They aren't picking up each other's patterns and behavior, but only Aguest's. It's startling at times. I have a very difficult time understanding what Aguest posts, because her writing style is not always conducive to communication, and that's fine. That's her style. But now I'm having a hard time understanding what some of her friends are posting, as they are posting like her. I also see the change in worship behavior. They are not reflecting each other, but they are reflecting Aguest.

    Sorry, but both of you have no idea what you are talking about. What you are seeing is simply mannerisms rubbing off due to friendship and mentorship. Your agenda to convince this board we have a cult leader in Shelby is disgusting. Mannerisms rub off on others, use some critical thinking for Christ's sake. Yes, cult leaders use this to their advantage, but Shelby IS NOT A CULT LEADER. People look up to her spiritually, that's all. She COULD start a cult if she WANTED to, because of that, but she has free will. This cult narrative borders on abusive speech and is a violation of posting guideline 1 and 2. Give it up, your argument is like saying being enrolled in the big brother program is like being a cult leader because mentoring can transfer mannerisms... GASP!

    -Sab

  • cofty
    cofty

    I beg to differ - time will tell.

  • Lozhasleft
    Lozhasleft

    Sab, good post, it actually is becoming insulting to us believers to suggest that any fellowship we share is because of some misguided adoration of AGuest. Suggesting that we are immature enough either intellectually or emotionally to be led into a cult is offensive to say the least. I personally visit the other forum usually about twice a week, if that, in my very busy life. I take or leave or share what I choose. My allegiance is to my heavenly father and always will be, it freed me from the tentacles of the WTBS and keeps me free from any other organised religion at this time, my choice.

    Currently it's being suggested that we are mimicking or developing AGuest's style of writing, well, in my case having reread many of my own recent posts I can see no change in my style, and neither can those closest to me away from this forum. It still suffers from the influence of my academic daily life maybe unfortunately, but that's all it does. I rarely indulge in these fights on here, it's far too wearing and mostly fruitless in my opinion, but lately these 'cult' theories are crossing boundaries of respect, that compell me to speak out. The treatment of AGuest has been appalling for as long as I've been on the board, I don't always rush to defend, but sometimes it's so blatant and unfair. And this because she claims to serve her God, shares aspects of her relationship with him, and has interchange with other spiritual members on the board, and dares to jointly start a forum where we can all debate spiritual things in peace, without insults, abuse and ridicule? Or is it because she fights her own corner against the onslaughts very well indeed, frustrating the attempts of so many to bring her down? I wonder.

    She is assured that I would speak up for anyone receiving such treatment on here, it's not because she posts on another forum where I engage. There is no evidence whatsoever of any cultish tendencies in any aspect of our fellowship with one another. We are too very well aware of such dangers thank you. It would be similarly offensive to accuse the atheists of the same and equally ridiculous.

    Loz x

  • NewChapter
    NewChapter

    First of all, Sab, I have observed something happening on the board, Q also observed it, others have observed it, and we stated it. We did not do so disrespecfully. We are also not ignorant to how people will pick up mannerisms of good friends. But we see something that goes beyond that, and we find it curious. Also, outside of mannerisms, are the other bits. The part about how they worship, express that worship etc. There is talk of voices and visions, and I have noticed that other people's voices or internal reasoning has begun to line up with Aguest's also. Perhaps if Aguest's take was more traditional, this would barely be noticed, but because her belief is so very unusual, things that make many people approach with a bit of caution, as I outlined here or on the other thread, I find that unsettlling.

    I did not say people could not express themselves, Glad, I simply made an observation. It's an observation you have also made. It was obvious enough to you that you took notice and thought about it. So I don't think we are being anything other than interested in what we see happening.

    Loz, not all posts apply to you. If this is not happening with you, then I was not speaking about you. I didn't even think about you when I wrote it. But it is true of others.

    Since Q and I observed this independently and it made an impression on us (we did not discuss it with each other) I just wanted to say that it is something I noticed too. I also explained why it made me feel odd to see it happening. I have not made any accusations, it is just something to think about. There is no need to come and defend a person that is not being attacked. We made observations, those observations make us uncomfortable, and we said so.

    It's just something to think about. Do with it as you will, but now those that have begun expressing themselves differently understand that it is actually noticable. Maybe that means something to them, maybe it doesn't. No need to get upset over an observation that was voiced. I have made no definite conclusions. It's not up to me anyway, as I am not speaking like anybody but myself at the moment.

  • tec
    tec

    Ditto to what Sab and Loz said here, and in the past as to this whole cult accusation. Enough said on that I think, because there is no evidence of a cult, and there really is no need to defend against something that has no evidence for it. Just seems like another attempt to dismiss. It also seems to me that someone said 'cult', and then everyone piled on. You will argue and say that it was all independent observation, but if you want me to respect that, then you need to do the same when it comes to people of faith sharing their faith. I have also noticed mannerisms and terms that are shared amongst atheists here. Does that make them a cult, or does that make them 'followers'?

    In any case, time will tell... as Cofty said. Of course, its been more than a decade now, lol... and nothing has changed, other than that there is a forum for some to go and share faith without the scorn or insults or ridicule that can often accompany such discussions here. So at what point, does a person stop accusing of this? 20 years, 30 years? Just curious as to when we might see an end to such accusations.

    As for calling someone a 'follower'... such a thing dismisses and disrespects their own mind, will, strength, faith, intelligence, etc. Some people are concerned and genuine, true. But they don't tend to keep saying it once it has been addressed, discussed, and refuted, not if they respect the person and the person respects them enough TO discuss it with them.

    Phizzy... for being on topic and without derailment to other 'issues'

    There is nothing we who are without faith can examine to test the truthfulness of their claims, hence our frustration that we are urged to "believe".
    Why should we

    I can't speak for anyone else, but I do not urge anyone to believe, certainly not based upon anything I have claimed. I witness to Christ, to my understanding, and also to the understanding that He has given me. But anyone who states that you should believe because of something they have claimed (even if they claim it is from Christ or God), is wrong to do so. IMO. Now, if you WANT to know about something, and you ARE seeking... the only one you should believe, go to, ask and listen to is Christ. If you do not have the faith for the Spirit right now, then you can still look to what we have written about Him to get some idea of Him. But again, that is only if you WANT to. If you do not want to, then no judgment, and no threats or force-feeding. Simply live and let live, and peace be with you.

    Peace,

    tammy

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